Help building my new amateur listening room

Marcus Aseth

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Hello everyone :)
For reasons, I'm made to move on a new apartment that is currently being built and in building my "bedroom / listening room" I'm given some leeway in choosing some of it's properties.
The things I'm allowed to change in this project are:
1) Thickness of walls
2) Positioning of doors & windows (except no door or window can go on the North wall)
3) Building materials
4) Acoustic treatment

And so I wanted to ask professionals on how I should require for it to be built, now that there is still the opportunity for changes.

Below I'll show how the place currently look, and the construction changes introduced by my project:

current state of the place:
Cattura.PNG

My project:
Apartment.PNG
Apartment close_up.PNG


So as you can see, I've given the room a more rectangular shape, the sizes are (H,W,L) 2.7m x 2.86m x 4.75m - room ratio is approximately 1 : 1.06 : 1.76
The window is off-center because I think a centered window might cause problems, right? Although this would leave only 1 corner available for angular bass trap, is that a good tradeoff?
Three of the walls are 30cm, and one is 10cm. That 10cm wall could be made 30cm as well, if you guys tell me the thickness asymmetry is going to create problems.
Also the desk is centered at 1/3 of the room because this is the recommendation I usually hear, but is 1/3 supposed to be the desk position, or my listening position? If the second, the desk would need to move forward still.
Those two things on the walls at the sides of the desk are 16cm acoustic panels.

So this is the situation and my current project, and I could totally use your help in identifying possible problems, things that should be changed, construction material to be used in the walls, material for drapes, type of door etc... anything that can make this better than currently is.
Let me know what do you think :)
 
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Sonnie

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It's nice to have some choices regarding how it is built.

Being an apartment, the question might be how much your neighbors will tolerate. I don't think you can soundproof it enough to eliminate the subfrequencies from resonating the building and disturbing them.

One option would be staggered studs, which I did. It requires 2"x6" bottom and top plates. I have 3/4" plywood on all the inside walls and ceiling using green glue between the studs and the plywood... plus 5/8" sheetrock on top of the plywood. Then, I have two layers of 5/8" sheetrock on the outside of the interior walls—blown newspaper insulation in all the walls and attic. I don't know how feasible that would be for you. I don't hear much through my walls, but I could not tame the sub-bass. It sounds like distant thunder in the house, which is what your neighbors would experience at louder volumes.

There is this option: https://auralex.com/rc-8-resilient-channel/ ... I'm unfamiliar with how well it works. Perhaps adding 1/4" mass-loaded vinyl (MLV) to the walls and ceiling would help.

You would also want a solid door that is well insulated... or dual doors if the walls are thick enough.

You'll have some room modes regardless of where your listening position ends up, but you can deal with those using Dirac Live or something similar. You may have to move your sub around to acquire more room boundary gain in the lowest octaves... probably the corner. Then, you can tame it with equalization.

I would probably leave the desk where it's at so you can pull the speakers out from the wall to achieve better soundstage, imaging, and depth acuity. You may have to adjust the listening position, which seems flexible and easily done.
 

Marcus Aseth

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Thank you for all the tips Sonnie, I hadn't even thought about the neighbors or the door yet, and those are a lot of good points.
The neighbors living above might end up hating me, so I'll use consideration and restraint, I won't blast the sub at outrageous levels and likely activate it only between 4PM to 7PM, and also sparingly during the week. The rooms above mine should be their bathroom and part of the bedroom, I don't think they will be spending much time there during those hours.
Unfortunately I suspect nothing can be done about the ceiling, but I'll make a note for the "well insulated solid door" :)

I've implemented your suggestion in the project, as the image below shows.
The blue box are my Kali lp6 v2, they follow the equilateral triangle placement rule and they are 87cm away from the front wall - and I've also moved forward the 16cm rockwool acoustic panels at the side of the desk to flank them, this change also removes the option of having an angular bass trap in one of the corner of the room, but then, would I even needed it if is only one?!
I'm still unclear on the window situation, if it would do more good or harm centering it with the room or not - by doing so I could potentially have angular bass traps on two corners, on the other hand, I've read a centered window is bad... can you guys confirm on that? ^_^'
Another thing to notice is the PC screen 60cm in front of me (the blue-ish rectangle on top of the desk), I've gave it the size of a 32' monitor (72cm wide) and I'm afraid it will block the direct sound a bit, is that a worry? What do you guys think?
I've came up with this "hypothesis" which is more of a wild guess: if I can see the tweeter from my listening position, then my ear can see it too so all is good.
So I should be seeing the tweeters still with this setup, what are you thoughts on that? Should I spread them more apart going outside of the equilateral triangle, or they are fine the way they are now?
Cattura.PNG
 

Marcus Aseth

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Many changes to the project followed so image below is the new planned "state of things" :)
Cattura.PNG
The room got bigger, new measures are (H,W,L) 2,70m x 3,48m x 4,75m - which through amroc I can see puts me inside the Bolt-area, that should be good right? :S
The room is 44.63 m3 and the pink shows where I can afford to put acoustic treatment, that in the image shows three 120x120 panels, two 30x120, two 50x120 in the front wall and two 41cm angular bass traps.

Now for the questions:
1) As you can see I have two very tall half wardrobes in the back wall corners flanking my bed, this was done to keep symmetry, but I don't actually need two, I could live with only 1 and using the space of the other for a small desk/table.
That would introduce asymmetry though, how much of a bad/noticeable impact you think it would have compared to the current setup?
2) About those huge half wardrobes, they're so tall that... does this shape still count as a rectangle? Or is now an "odd shape"? Am I introducing more problems in the room?
3) Window - I've centered it in the room. Will this be cause for concern? I can have it off-center as well. There is any agreed upon objectively better placement for it?
4) Do I have planned enough treatment for a 44.63 m3 room such that I don't have echo/reverb and pretty much good sound with a little EQ tuning?
5) How important is the ceiling treatment for this room? Assuming one would treat it, where should they treat it exactly? I'll be honest with you, I'm afraid anything hanging in there would fall and smash my PC setup and head...
6) What types of panels I'm supposed to use where for a general good result? For now, all the panels in the image are16 cm thick what I think is called "porous absorbers"

I think this is enough questions for now :greengrin:
 

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A couple of things to consider. I've never heard a triangular speaker setup that didn't sound better with the speakers farther apart (wider than the triangle). I'm not saying every speaker is the same, but I know I've listened to more than I can count. I would consider the Cardas recommendation for placement: https://www.cardas.com/system-setup ... then I would experiment with the listening position, moving forward in the triangle, and it should begin to sound more immersive with better imaging and a broader soundstage. This would likely resolve your monitor issue, and you could also move it back a little on the desk, if possible.

I don't think the window or any asymmetry will have that much of an impact, although I'm a bit OCD about symmetry myself. :whistling:

As for ceiling panels, the mirror point between you and the speakers is typical, but I don't know if it will make all that much difference. You could first try listening without acoustic treatment and see how it sounds. If it's too lively, you could add a few panels here and there to help with the acoustics. With your room as small as it is, my guess is you'd probably want to stick with 2-inch to 4-inch thick panels.
 

Marcus Aseth

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As always, thank you for the tips Sonnie :)
Interesting read in the link, I've tried to apply the formula provided there to the size of my room, and the speaker placement (consequently the room layout) would turn out like this:
Cattura.PNG
Some things to notice due to that change:
A) the bed gets rotated, which means it cannot be in the center of the room anymore
B) because of that, only 1 half-wardrobe can stay, so both things combined the back symmetry is kind of gone, is that bad? I cannot tell :greengrin:
C) acoustic panels on the side wall get moved to capture early reflections, which means the bathroom door goes far into the room, forcing me to pass by them every time - an awkward walk to the bathroom compared to before, and gotta be careful when I'm half asleep at night to not knock one over.
Edit: I might consider having the bathroom door outside the room to solve that.

(a thing to note is that the room is wider than the rectangle in the Cardas recommendation, but I could also narrow the wider wall to match that ratio)

So I guess here the deciding factor would be "would this really be a major listening experience improvement compared to before?"
If yes, I might be willing to make the sacrifice/changes, but I'm suspecting noone can really answer that without actually being in the room and listening/measuring, so I suspect it's down the the toss of a coin xD
 
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Keep in mind the Cardas placement is only a recommended starting point. I have never matched it 100%. If you can keep the front of your speakers around 90-120cm from the front wall, that should be sufficient. I also have my speakers closer to the side walls than Cardas recommends. Placement is an experiment, but Cardas got me to realize that pulling the speakers out into the room would help with better sound. I was also using the planar/dipole calculator as a starting point for my stats. I have not changed my positioning based on converting from stats to conventional speakers, nor did we change it for any of our evaluation events.
 

Marcus Aseth

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I have a placement question/doubt :
Should I first place absorbing panels on the reflection points with some decent margin in such a way I can later move the monitors/desk and find the right listening position after and still get the reflections absorbed, or should I do the monitor/listening pos. placement and measuring without any treatment, find the correct position for the speakers and listening position first, and then place the panels on the first reflection points after?
I was thinking the second, but I don't know if the empty room measurement with it's reverb/echos would "mess up" the measurements possibly leading me to a wrong placement of the speakers/listening position.
Essentially: how do pros do this? (I would really appreciate if someone could explain the whole process also explaining the point of each measurement and what I would need to look for in them in order to find the right placement, or a possibly very long youtube video recommendation that lays out everything step by step - I haven't found one yet that tells me everything in detail)
 
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Sonnie

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You would need to get your listening and speaker position set first; then, if you need acoustic panels, you can add them. You may not need them.

I'm not aware of a video for this. Typically, I listen for good soundstage, imaging, and depth acuity for speaker placement, then I measure the frequency response and apply digital correction as needed, improving what I hear.
 

Marcus Aseth

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Perfect, I'll determine the placement first then :)
Meanwhile, I've finalized my project!
Cattura.PNG

Apologize for the italian naming on things, anyway the conclusion I've reached was that I needed to take the bathroom door and the half wardrobe out of the room, so I've concocted this setup, with a small antechamber before my room.
The bathroom door needed to be gone because it might be taking away space for treatment, the half wardrobe needed to be gone because it would break symmetry and I have no idea how that big hollow space would interact with sounds, so I've brought both outside of the room.
Now I can place 60cm bass traps on the corners no problem, so if the need for them arise, I've set up myself for success :greengrin:
 

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Marcus Aseth

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Looks good to me... very interested to see how it will end up sounding for you.

What is all your gear/electronics? If you get a chance you might list what you already have: https://www.avnirvana.com/account/account-details
Oh, nothing exceptional (relatively speaking I mean), I got a pair a Kali LP6 v2 and an SVS SB1000 pro.
Today my brother (construction worker) is going to present the project to the engineer to have it approved and then the alteration of the apartment will resume, so it's still a long way before I'll be placing speakers in the room and measuring, but as soon as we get there I'll be back to update this topic with measurements and questions :)
 

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Do you have a receiver, prepro + amp?
 

Marcus Aseth

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Do you have a receiver, prepro + amp?
I don't think I do, and to be honest, I don't really know the purpose of that gear still :greengrin:
The way I'm setup is with a PC connected to a Behringer umc22 through USB (which I use to easily control the volume of the system), SUB's connected to it, and SUB's output goes to the speakers.
I think I've got a very basic setup : )
 

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I would consider your setup a prepro + amp, using your computer as your preamp/processor.
 

Marcus Aseth

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I've learned something concerning about the room today.
When I asked the measures, they told me it was 2,70m high, so of course I've planned it with different measures for the walls in mind, the previous project was 4,75m x 3,38m x 2,70m.
Now they've explained me it will be 2,70m after they put the drywall false-ceiling, because the room existing wall is 3,30m high.
So my concerns about that are:
A) 60 cm empty space behind the drywall... what will the sound do there?
B) metal frame holding the drywall, I imagine my subwoofer will manage to make it rattle
C) Not to mention the drywall is 1cm thick, that's probably transparent to low frequencies, so my room is still counting as if it was 3,30m (floor to ceiling) x 3,38 (side to side) and as far as I know equal or similar measures are to be avoided in order to not exacerbate room modes problems at certain frequencies... 3,30m happens to be ~100hz.

So...yeah, this doesn't look good to me :(

I think I could ask them to make a 10cm brick wall in the ceiling 2,70m high to avoid having the room height too similar in length to the short wall, but there would still be a 50cm empty space between the real ceiling and this brick wall ceiling... would it just make matter worse? or little to no difference at all?

I don't know... any builders around? :greengrin:
 

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If the metal is installed correctly, there should be no rattling.

As long as you insulate well above the ceiling, it would act no differently than a normal attic that is insulated.

Yes... even in my room with one layer of plywood and 3 layers of sheetrock over staggered studs on the walls with blown insulation, and one layer of plywood and two layers of sheetrock on the ceiling with a foot of insulation, the sub-bass still gets through to the house. It's pretty much impossible to stop.
 
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