Demastering your music

billrobbo

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For me personally, there are so many albums and tracks that sound great on a good system that I just avoid the ones that do not, and don't really miss them. If there was a favorite album that needed demastering, I might give it a try.

I guess that's the rub. I enjoy the early Springsteen and Cohen but, because of their age, they don't sound as good as they could. If this process can make them more enjoyable then I'm willing to put the effort in.
 

tesseract

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I'm super interested in a Tigerlilly comparison... that's one CD that sounds like it want's be be vibrant and full, but ends up sounding rather flat and unexciting.

I have an MFSL 45 rpm album of this and also listen to it on TIDAL and agree, there seems to be a veil over what wants to be a great recording.
 

tesseract

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Just as an aside on that album (Tigerlily):

...

I'm not a lyrics kind of guy...as they apparently exist, but I read about the story of where the track "Beloved Wife" came from: Merchant's grandfather apparently died a couple of days after his wife died in the 1980s, and the experience of watching his grief end his life, too apparently caused his granddaughter to write the song.

Chris

Just went through this with my grandparents, my grandfather and namesake passing within months of his wife, my grandmother, of 66 years. I knew the man well, he was always very upbeat and had a little perma-smile on his face at all times. The loss changed him radically and eventually killed him.

It is a difficult song for me to listen to.
 

AudiocRaver

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One more thought:

The aspect of this that is most fascinating to me is the approach to the music and listening experience and the mindset that would have one demastering a good portion of his music. Please do not take this at all personally, Chris, we never flame here, but we also are not afraid to speak out and say what is on our minds.

For me, having done some composing, recording, mixing, and mastering, mainly of my own works, those steps are all part of the process of delivering a recorded work to the listener. When I hear an album or track I don't care for, I don't think, "The music is good, and the basic recording, but not the mastering," and go about undoing the mastering so I can enjoy the music without it. It is simply a recording I do not care for, for whatever reason, and I will listen to one of the many oodles of albums and tracks that delight my sensibilities as they are.

Now, that is ME. You, Chris, and certainly many others, see that badly mastered album as a potential opportunity, as a mix of sand and gravel that is likely to contain some nuggets of gold, and are willing to pan and sift and screen and - voila! c'est ca! - there is some pretty nice sounding music after all! A perfectly valid undertaking and a perfectly good way to spend a bit of time to uncover that nugget. If you WANT to. If I tried it, knowing the way I approach such things, I would get so caught up in the process that I would be up all night tweaking on one album and when I got done I would still not be happy about some little thing that bugs me and would walk away and never try it again. Again, that's just ME,

For all who are more than likely to
  • enjoy the process
  • easily keep a lid on the time it takes to process an album or track
  • easily and decisively know when they are done
  • and are satisfied with the result
the process and outcomes will seem very worthwhile.

Again, no disrespect, and I thank you for a well-thought-out and explained and documented process that many can benefit from.
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

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Let me get this straight: you're now demanding that I do more work and expose myself to litigation so that you're going to relegate a total of 30 seconds to considering the technique? Interesting.

It actually sounds like you're not truly interested, but curiously, you're taking the time to comment in this thread. You're rejecting my previous offer--which is much more effective in hearing the differences.

It seems as if I'm playing apologetics on this new forum...something that I find a bit hard to understand given the current situation. I see only "staff" responding here, which to me means that you're attempting to launch the site. I initially felt was a good cause to try to support with a subject that I've found is worthy of a audio enthusiast's time and energy, because of the potential to significantly change the listening experience and connection to the music.

I was afraid that this would turn out to be another chore rather than what it has become for me: catharsis. I've personally spent years of having to listen to the effects of poor mastering on the music that I've acquired, but now I don't have to spend another minute listening to those effects. That's something that I believe has real value. Unfortunately, that notion isn't apparently shared here.

I fear that I've wasted my time in assembling the two tutorials above, providing available examples for those truly willing to try, and answering questions. But questioning the entire concept without any actual listening time or effort in some responses here isn't really something that I relish doing again and again. I suppose the Part 3 of the tutorials isn't really worthy of effort to complete. That's unfortunate. That's where the real meat of the technique is.

Have a good day. Hope things go well for you.

Chris
I am not demanding anything. I said before that I do find it interesting and the value to me is in better understanding what is done to the music, particularly that which may not be prioritized by the intent of the artist(s) but by perceived distribution and sales needs. I might not be interested in remastering my own music, but that does not mean that I don't see value in the work you have done.

As to opening you up to litigation, I think this is a gross over-reaction and a misunderstanding of copyright law. There are clear exceptions for fair use that have been repeatedly upheld and a requirement to show harm to the owner. In this case, such a production and comparison is clearly for the purpose of review, research, commentary, and/or education, and no possible argument could be made for harm. If anything, people would be more likely to purchase the music if they find a way that they can make these fantastic works of art sound better.

No, I don't want to do it myself for the most part, but don't take critique and dissection of what you have produced as complete rejection of your work. That was never intended. Again, I think this has great value, but for me personally it is more academic than practical.
 
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Fugazi97

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Clearly, I understand. I really recommend listening to an already demastered CD in the mean time. I recommend Steely Dan's Gaucho, perhaps Joni Mitchell's Blue or Miles of Aisles, one of Nora Jones' first three CDs, Brian Bromberg's Wood, Natalie Merchant's Tigerlily, John Coltrane's Blue Train...or one of the perhaps 1000 other albums that I've already demastered (and an album that you already own) to hear the difference.

Shoot me a "conversation" (PM) and I can access you to any albums you are interested in.

Chris
I am VERY interested in trying out what you suggest! can you send me something from Steely Dan or Natalie merchant so I could hear the effect you are getting?
 

Chris A

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I just rediscovered this old thread and thought that perhaps there might be others that have since joined this forum since it was originally posted that might actually be interested in doing Audacity (and perhaps Fabfilter Pro-MB VST plugin multiband expander/compressor) corrections of poor sounding recordings they own that's traceable to mastering practices.

Since this thread was originally posted 7 years ago, I've continued to evolve and progress demastering practices and apply them to almost 2000 albums (over 20K music tracks). Along the way, I've also stumbled onto some relatively unknown fundamental truths about what the ear hears from sound reproduction systems (i.e., flattened phase response loudspeakers and electronics). This was probably the single largest discovery that I believe I've had in my hi-fi audio journey to date.

I plan to put together a book on the subject of demastering, since I've found that pdf tutorials are just too limited in scope and utility for those that really do want to learn how to do it. After another book I'm working on is completed, I will turn my full attention to a book on demastering, so that others that are truly interested can follow along, avoiding some of the learning curve time and pitfalls that I have encountered over the past 10 years of applying these techniques to my own music tracks.

I'm currently working on another book on home hi-fi audio that perhaps will be published in the not-so-distant future that includes how to dial-in your loudspeakers using DSP crossovers, and many other topics related to how to acquire and set-up home hi-fi systems to maximize sound quality and minimize costs over typical trial-and-error techniques.

In the mean time, there is an old thread on another forum that might be of use to those interested in demastering techniques:

The Missing Octave(s) - Audacity Remastering to Restore Tracks

Note that since then (early 2015), the little imported *.XML EQ filters I posted for Audacity have been changed in format by the application so that they no longer function properly if you try to import them into more recent versions of Audacity (versions 3.xx). If you pick up an older version of Audacity (versions 2.xx), you can still use those little EQ filter files to hear some differences and play with them to suit your own setup and preferences. In my view, most all of those old EQ import filters have been overcome by events (OBE), but still offer some utility for the interested hi-fi enthusiast.

Regards,

Chris Askew
 
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DanDan

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It is not possible to reverse or undo the processes used in Mastering. To hear an album with No Mastering, try Mary Black's No Frontiers. This was done way back. At Abbey Road Mastering for CD we chose to not alter it in any way. Word got out to the UK Hi Fi fraternity, then world wide. Mission Electronics gave away 10,000 CDs containing these tracks to their customers throughout the globe. It became the new Ricky Lee Jones. A friend of mine is Mastering world number ones at the moment. I asked him if the Loudness War is still...... He said it is worse than ever.
 
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Travis Ballstadt

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Having been in a band, and having many friends in bands, I always do whatever I can to get a copy of their albums pre-mastering. I almost always prefer unmastered mixes to the final product.

Additionally, having just released an album on vinyl, I far prefer even the digital master of the vinyl mastering vs the master for digital delivery. There's not an attempt to "make it loud". Both versions mastered by JJ Golden, even if I'm listening via my iPhone in the car or on headphones, the vinyl master sounds better to me.
 

Chris A

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It is not possible to reverse or undo the processes used in Mastering.
Well, it's good to know that you've got a firm opinion on the subject. So that clearly means I won't have to argue the point in your case: you've got your answer.

For anyone that wants to hear the difference, shoot me a PM here and I can provide examples. Even those folks with very poorly calibrated setups will hear a difference.

By the way, there are a lot more "not mastered" releases out there. AIX has a full catalog of releases with no mastering (and they sound really good on my setup--as is). If you happen to move away from straight rock genres (and there are hundreds of these micro-genres) as the only genre that you listen to, you will find a lot more fidelity--in my experience.

There's not an attempt to "make it loud"
Exactly.

...even if I'm listening via my iPhone in the car or on headphones, the vinyl master sounds better to me.

You can't "make it louder" on vinyl. It's the physical format that will not support these Loudness War practices--the needle essentially won't track if you try.

Chris
 

Todd Anderson

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Chris... I'm so glad you're reviving this thread. Blows my mind that 7 years have gone by. SEVEN! It feels like we jump-started the site only 2 or 3 years ago!

I've not forgotten about your original post and I've listened to the Tiger Lilly tracks you sent... but it was a while ago... need to go back and revist.
 

DanDan

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Well, it's good to know that you've got a firm opinion on the subject. So that clearly means I won't have to argue the point in your case: you've got your answer.

Of course I can't critique or examine your techniques due to the veil of Mystery. The HiFi World is full of such. I guess being a Professional Recording and Live Engineer for 50 years might install an amount of confidence in observations about the techniques involved. e.g. Parallel Compression is often included to ' Glue' the Mixes together. Personally I rather achieve distinctness and space between the sound source. But in any case Compression cannot be reverse engineered. Nor can the extreme multi band 'Lever Hammers' be reversed. Nor can the added Harmonic Distortions be subtracted.

There is a whole world wide industry of people Mastering as best they can. Minimising damage, delivering what the clients want. Yet one guy here can cast spells to undo their best work, replacing it with his better version.
Is there a Vaccine against DeMastering?
 

Chris A

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Good to hear your views. I hope you have gained a degree of catharsis yourself and feel better now that you've clearly opened your views to the world. :T

For others that are not so sure about the answers that can be achieved, I still invite you to send me a PM so I can access you to examples that might help you understand how much difference it can make in the enjoyment of the recorded music tracks using your own ears and methods of listening.

Regards,

Chris
 

Sonnie

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Is the AIX Records – Ultra HD-Audio 2017 disc a good one to listen to for music that has not been mastered?

It has 70 tracks on it... thinking about ordering it.
 

Chris A

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I've not forgotten about your original post and I've listened to the Tiger Lilly tracks you sent... but it was a while ago... need to go back and revist.

I believe that I've updated the Tigerlily tracks since 2017 based on my discovery of the aural effects of flattened phase-response loudspeakers/electronics.

You may not know that the audibility of the bass below ~100 Hz is subjectively increased on the order of 2-3 dB--based on typical phase growth seen in loudspeakers using IIR (i.e., passive and active) crossover filters, especially those employing higher order filters. When you look at how close together the bass loudness contours are for human hearing, this makes a great deal of difference in how it subjectively sounds. (Toole talks about this phenomenon in his book, but to actually experience on one's own setup is something not soon forgotten.) Once I corrected the phase response of my loudspeakers, I had to go back and re-EQ downward the bass to compensate for this change.

Additionally, most of what was tweaked in those tracks was mainly the mastering EQ, since I found the "translation" EQ used to be a bit harsh in the higher frequencies...and rolled-off on the bottom end (perhaps the tracks were translated on something like NS-10M Studios, and presents a very different sound than my front loudspeakers...).

In any case, I think there might be other tracks that display more improvement than the Tigerlily tracks. Perhaps we could discuss what you are familiar with and would like to hear slightly differently. I can also upload the tracks as I have them now in case you still want to hear them.

Is the AIX Records – Ultra HD-Audio 2017 disc a good one to listen to for music that has not been mastered? It has 70 tracks on it... thinking about ordering it.
I haven't listened to that album, so I can't offer any advice in that particular case.

However, I do have 9 other AIX albums, all ripped to flac for easy playback and to protect the original discs, some of which I listen to quite often. Only one disc showed any issues with limiting/hard clipping (Hanna-McEuen's Tried and True). It sounds really loud on disc, although not anywhere the level of clipping that I've found on other popular music albums.

All other AIX albums are excellent in terms of sound quality and some of the best that I own. I can attest to the label's track record in terms of sound quality, so you can feel reassured with your choice as being a good bet.

Chris
 
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DanDan

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Good to hear your views. I hope you have gained a degree of catharsis yourself and feel better now that you've clearly opened your views to the world.

Wooo, waiter a Saucer of Milk to De Master's Table please.......

For others that are not so sure about the answers that can be achieved, I still invite you to send me a PM so I can access you to examples that might help you understand how much difference it can make in the enjoyment of the recorded music tracks using your own ears and methods of listening.

It would be the simplest thing in the world to damage the Befores and undo that on the Afters.

How about we pick a track that many people have at home, say something off Gaucho or All you can Eat by KD Lang? Post your version publicly and tell us what you did. All of my work is available. Interesting that the Crossover Designers don't seem to know what they are doing either.
FYI Fletcher Munson were also clueless......
 

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Chris A

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How about we pick a track that many people have at home, say something off Gaucho or All you can Eat by KD Lang? Post your version publicly and tell us what you did. Interesting the the Crossover Designers don't seem to know what they are doing either.

Copyright laws in my country (USA) will not legally allow me to do that. (They may in your country, however.) I can only share files via closed/controlled channels in order to avoid that issue, and thusly assuring that the recipient actually owns a legal copy of the music being shared.

I don't post shortened excerpts of any tracks, since I've found that this doesn't give the listener enough to fairly judge the results.

Chris
 
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DanDan

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You have Law in your Country? OK, that makes sense, so send me a track from Gaucho or KD please. Speaking of KD I just dragged a track, Sexuality, onto the Loudness Analyser I use.
It comes in at exactly -14 LUFS with I presume -1dB True Peak. Exactly my target as it happens. Over -14 changes the Mix and the Tone to my ear. Apple even use -16 now. https://www.loudnesspenalty.com/
 
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Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
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ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...
@Chris A, I have read thru your documents and feel like I have already been doing something like what you seem to be suggesting...

So, if I have done room correction and speaker crossover correction with REW and Rephrase and use a FIR convolution solution, that would be step one...

Next is a mastering quality equalizer plugin that can do dynamic EQ on the fly... Wouldn't that get close to what you are suggesting?

Only thing is that with all the horsepower in personal computers now a dayze, read multi CPUs, parallel, vector, and GPUs for signal processing, why not do it all on the fly? It is not like you can save CPU cycles in a mayonnaise jar to use later on.. :justdontknow:
 
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Chris A

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why not do it all on the fly?

I haven't played with dynamic EQ plugins, but I've cursorily looked at them in the past. If they work by averaging EQ over an entire track (i.e., not trying to EQ every moment of music in a short look-ahead window), essentially you could set up a dynamic EQ plugin probably most successfully for use on certain genres of music with generally unvarying and full music spectra--like hard rock/metal, electronica, and certain kinds of pop, etc. and let them play in real time.

I've found over time that my use of EQ correction has generally moderated to use less than I typically used years ago. But even at that, it still requires at least one listening of an entire album's re-EQed tracks, then taking note of those tracks still having remaining issues that must be either updated or redone.

But I think you'd still have the need to want to tweak the dynamic spectrum profile for each track in real time while listening (i.e., fine tuning), updating the EQ profile iteratively, until a happy medium is found. After that process, I still think you would want to save the track with its new EQ, and in the future listen to that saved track without the dynamic EQ plugin continuously running as standard practice. In effect, you're doing the same thing that I've done using Audacity in the past, but it takes less time to tweak the EQ settings.

But before I start on any track, the first thing I do is measure the loudness of all incoming tracks on an album using ReplayGain, then look at those highest loudness tracks for evidence of clipping. If I find clipping has occurred on any tracks, I run a batch macro of ClipFix and reset the gains using the Amplify command (negative gain) generally downwards to achieve 0 (zero) ReplayGain average for the entire album. This removes the Loudness War gains and resets the tracks to a common loudness level across my entire FLAC database--something I believe you will come to do, too over time.

So as I see it, you would still be compiling a library of newly updated tracks--instead of the alternative of compiling a list of dynamic EQ profiles for each track on an album. What I've found is that every track must be auditioned under careful conditions (including listening at an average of 83 dBC at the listening position) to get the bass right.

But my advice (of course) is to try it...and listen carefully at full volume (SPL) levels. Otherwise, you're going to be redoing a lot of tracks after turning the gain up to mastering audition levels (generally 83 dBC at the listening position) and finding you've got too much bass below ~100 Hz, and perhaps a bit too much treble above ~5 kHz.
_________________________________________________________________________________

What I've found using a multiband upwards expander (like Fabfilter Pro-MB) is that I first run the plugin interactively while the track is playing, then tweaking the plugin parameters, particularly the thresholds and gains, while watching the resulting dynamic gains on each EQ frequency band and listening very carefully. Then I turn off the interactive plugin after saving the plugin settings for that track, and then run the plugin in batch mode across the entire track, and save the new track with a new name, etc. So each new track also has its own little XML settings file. This takes some care to get the upwards expander settings set so that they produce new tracks that don't clip on the output. Otherwise you'll have to run Normalize or Amplify to reduce the overall gain for the track to get all the peaks under 0 dB (FS).

I find that each track requires custom settings in the plugin to get them sounding acceptable--not too much or too little treble or sibilence, or bass, or midbass bands, etc. This process is much faster than using batch runs of the expander, listening, then undoing, tweaking the settings, and running batch again, until a good happy medium is found.

Thus far, I do not use the expander on tracks whose overall crest factor is more than12 or 13 dB (using the Audacity Dynamic Range plugin), since most music tracks were likely recorded originally at these dynamic range levels while using some fairly moderate in-line compressors on the microphones (perhaps 3 dB or a bit more on peaks except for percussion transients, which can be much greater). There are many genres/instrumentations that far exceed this dynamic range, of course, and these generally don't need upwards expansion.

I never use the compressor portion of the plugin on music, since I'm always going in the opposite direction...

I hope I answered some of your questions (some are anticipated questions). Did I?

Chris
 
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DanDan

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You have indeed anticipated and answered some of my questions Chris, thank you. My apologies in advance as it reveals the fundamental misinterpretations and fallacy or you endeavour.
Clipping squares off the tips of the Waveform. This is no possibility of reversing that. That is why many of the 'standards' include a requirement of -1dB True Peak. Please look at the revised Equal Loudness Curves, there is little difference between in the LF boosting slope between the 60, 80, and 100 curves. Dynamic Eq interferes with the Sonic and Artistic Creation. Changing the carefully sculpted Mix and carefully executed (pun intended) Master. Who asked you? Audicity Dynamic Range plug in.....? Seriously, that is probably as effective as it's price. Seems to me you are trying to ReMaster, without the benefit of the original clean Mixes. In my Mind's Eye I see a Traveller sitting in a Train Carriage, with a bunch of Newspapers. With a Blunt Pencil, he is ReDrawing on top of the Cartoons. Can anyone guess the Journey's destination?
 
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vincenzo_uli

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I recall that some years ago, Dick Burwen and Mark Levinson were strong proponents of track rebalancing. I believe Mark, through his new venture, Daniel Hertz, still offers a software called Master Class, which performs similar functions to what Chris is doing, I think, but in a less sophisticated manner (and for $600...). I would be very interested in learning more about this. I wonder if Chris has managed to consolidate his 10 years of knowledge into an easy-to-read text.
 

Chris A

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May 22, 2017
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Location
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Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-1 AVP, Xilica XP-8080 & miniDSP 2x4 HD
Main Amp
First Watt F3, Crown D75-As (5 total) bi-amping
Additional Amp
Crown XTi-1000 for subwoofers (2)
DAC
Topping D10 Balanced (stereo only mode)
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG UBK90, Oppo BDP-103, Laptop
Front Speakers
Klipsch Jubilees (TAD TD-4002 compression drivers)
Center Channel Speaker
K-402-Multiple Entry Horn (full range)
Surround Speakers
Klipsch Belle bass bins with ESS AMT-1, bi-amped
Surround Back Speakers
-
Front Height Speakers
-
Rear Height Speakers
-
Subwoofers
DIY SPUD Tapped Horn (2) behind fronts
Screen
LG OLED 77"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony One

vincenzo_uli

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Location
Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Great to hear that Chris. Keep me posted, I would definitely be interested in both books!
In the meantime, do you have a shortlist of classical recordings that need little to no rebalancing?
Thanks in advance for your work.
 
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