What would be needed to use Audiolense (2.4 system)

Mike-48 · Jun 30, 2024

I have a 2-channel system with 4 subs. I'm currently using a DAC-Preamp (Anthem STR) that provides DSP DRC and crossovers. I am considering trying Audiolense. As one who has used DSP preamps for almost 20 years, I never had to think about coordinating a lot of equipment, and I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how Audiolense would work in my situation.

I understand I could use a Windows laptop and my UNIK-2 to generate the filters. (Right?)

If I replaced the Anthem preamp, what else would I need? Could my Roon core (a NUC on the home network) serve as the convolver and/or crossover? If so, how would I go from its Ethernet output to analog signals to drive power amps and subs? I assume I'd need a 3- or 4-channel DAC (or more), but I'm not sure how to get the signal from the network to the DAC(s). I'm currently using a 2-channel "streamer" (Auralic Aries).

I would like to avoid having a general-purpose computer in the listening room.

I'm trying to get at least to the flow-chart stage of this, so I can think about it. Thoughts?

Thanks!
Mike

juicehifi · Jun 30, 2024

You need to run Windows OS to measure the speakers and create filters. And if you want to correct the subs individualy you need a soundcard or dac with 6 output channels or something that works to the same effect. The PC needs to see all channels that Audiolense is going to correct.

The other option is to configure and integrate the subs outside of the PC and only let the PC correct mains plus subs as a regular pair of stereo speakers.

IMO the ideal solution is a multichannel sound card and a microphone that you plug into one of the input channels.

Yes, you can run the filters in Roon.

asibbald · Jul 3, 2024

Bernt, I'm in exactly the same situation as Mike-48. I understand your answer - reasonably enough, it is about how to create the filters in the first place - which is what Audiolense is for.

However, I *think* most of Mike-48's question (and certainly my main question) is how to use those filters, once created, in Roon.

Perhaps this is a question more for a Roon forum, but the question I'm struggling with is, once one has converted the two stereo channels in Roon core into the 6 channels ( L + R + 4 subs ) whether:

a) To send all 6 channels via RAAT to a single Roon end point which is connected to a DAC with at least 6 channels - or:

b) If one can send the 6 channels to (say) three Roon endpoints, each with a stereo DAC - one for L + R, another for SUB1 + SUB2 and the third for SUB3 + SUB4

sledwards · Jul 3, 2024

Mike-48/Asibald:

I have been down the path you are both considering with excellent results on several systems and can offer up some advice. First, DO NOT go down the path of multiple DACs. Although some have had limited success doing it, is is complicated, can be expensive and is really not required to enjoy the benefits of AL

With 4 subs, the key to success comes before AL. Placement is key, and trial-and-error evaluation is necessary. I recommend to use REW to perform quick FR sweeps to aid in placement, adjusting the output level and crossover point for each sub using the subwoofer's amplifier controls.

Start with your 2-channel DAC. Create AL generated 2-channel convolution filters for Roon's convolver. Roon help file will tell you how and where to load the convolution files.

Should you decide to proceed to a full multi-channel approach with digital crossovers between your subs and main speakers, a reasonable priced solution is the Motu Utralite mk5: https://motu.com/en-us/products/gen5/ultralite-mk5/. This solution will give you the flexibility and benefit of full time and phase alignment between your subs and mains. Plus, the Motu is also a microphone preamp which allows you use a simple powered microphone for AL measurements. Having both input and ouput on one device is a real benefit when using AL. Six channels of convolution filters can be generated and loaded into Roon, where Roon will then do the math required to send 6 discrete, filtered channels to the multichannel DAC for playback.

Hope this helps in some way to start your journey into multi-sub with room correction.

Steve

asibbald · Jul 3, 2024

Steve,

Thanks very much - that is exactly the sort of practical advice I was looking for.

I already have and use a Motu Ultralight mk5, so I'll take your advice and do it that way.

Essentially, one ethernet cable to the Roon endpoint/Motu and then six balanced analogue cables from that to the power amps driving the L/R and 4 subs.

Thanks again for the advice.

Mike-48 · Jul 3, 2024

Thanks to all who responded - @juicehifi, @asibbald, @sledwards.

Yes, my question was mainly about how to use filters (once generated) to end up with six analog outputs. It doesn't seem like there's an overabundance of products to do that.

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that getting Roon to run the convolution and output six channels from two will be possible for a somewhat (but not infinitely) patient user.

Then, the main obstacle seems to be getting a six-channel audio signal from my LAN (where my fake Nucleus will send it) into a six-channel DAC. Some kind of a multichannel bridge (streamer) would be necessary -- the ones I know are two channels only (I think). An auxiliary question is how best to accomplish volume and balance control.

Of course, when one thinks about making measurements, the same issue arises -- what's the best way to get test signals to all the channels.

Another type of question is how much Audiolense does to optimize the combined response of subs and mains. In a room with strong null and peaks, it is not enough simply to optimize each speaker separately, or to do that and then pick the best phase relationships.

Then, I wonder how one would implement reasonably convenient tone controls, for correcting program material that needs it. Roon's EQ is not very good for that; I'm looking for something done more easily on the fly, without latency.

I now appreciate how much a DSP preamp (like my Anthem STR Preamp) actually does. Even after this discussion, I'm not sure how many boxes, and which ones, one would need to replicate those functions without a DSP DAC-Preamp. My impression is that if I were willing to have a Windows PC with multichannel DAC card in the listening room, using a program like Audiolense could be easier.

sledwards · Jul 3, 2024

Mike-48

First of all, when you say "somewhat but not infinitely patient", can you expand on this statement. I will come right out and say it, when you step into the arena of AL, DSP and multi-channels, patience is required. Depending upon your do-it-yourself tolerance level, expect a certain level of frustration to achieve your expectations. There is a learning curve.

Mike-48 · Jul 3, 2024

@sledwards -- I smiled when I read your last comment.

Indeed, I may be too used to the relative ease of a DSP preamp (with DRC, crossovers, and DAC) to switch horses at this point. I've used those for ~20 years now, and at times even they can try my patience. That goes in spades now that I have four subwoofers hooked up. And as I've got older, my interest in fiddling has diminished, as I'd rather watch the sunset or listen to a string quartet.

One always comes up against software bugs or misfeatures or just things that aren't implemented or explained very well.

I'm also considering a NAD M66 and plan to spend time with one before deciding. I don't know Dirac, but the all-in-one hardware solution is appealing. I hope it will be an improvement in a few areas while not going backwards in others.

whoareyou · Jul 4, 2024

Mike-48 said:
Thanks to all who responded - @juicehifi, @asibbald, @sledwards.

Yes, my question was mainly about how to use filters (once generated) to end up with six analog outputs. It doesn't seem like there's an overabundance of products to do that.

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that getting Roon to run the convolution and output six channels from two will be possible for a somewhat (but not infinitely) patient user.

Then, the main obstacle seems to be getting a six-channel audio signal from my LAN (where my fake Nucleus will send it) into a six-channel DAC. Some kind of a multichannel bridge (streamer) would be necessary -- the ones I know are two channels only (I think). An auxiliary question is how best to accomplish volume and balance control.

Of course, when one thinks about making measurements, the same issue arises -- what's the best way to get test signals to all the channels.

Another type of question is how much Audiolense does to optimize the combined response of subs and mains. In a room with strong null and peaks, it is not enough simply to optimize each speaker separately, or to do that and then pick the best phase relationships.

Then, I wonder how one would implement reasonably convenient tone controls, for correcting program material that needs it. Roon's EQ is not very good for that; I'm looking for something done more easily on the fly, without latency.

I now appreciate how much a DSP preamp (like my Anthem STR Preamp) actually does. Even after this discussion, I'm not sure how many boxes, and which ones, one would need to replicate those functions without a DSP DAC-Preamp. My impression is that if I were willing to have a Windows PC with multichannel DAC card in the listening room, using a program like Audiolense could be easier.

My experience with a newer AVR/ Dirac system is very positive, but I only use it for Atmos. Couldn't agree more regarding the built-in DSP on these pre-amps and AVR's. I do use AL for stereo and multichannel, but can't/don't want to expand further and add even more "boxes" to my setup for Atmos.

When I first got my AVR (Marantz Cinema 30), I was hoping to simplify my system.

I listened extensively with and without DSP and also compared between non AVR / AL and AVR / Dirac with same target curves for stereo and non-Atmos multichannel 3.0, 4.0,5.1, etc.. I came to conclusion that the AVR's hardware was just as good as my external DAC, but that ALs DSP was the difference maker.

To my ears, Dirac 's sound simply doesn't match AL's DSP. I tried many different approaches with Dirac and could never replicate AL's results. AL's bass is always more refined and centered. The entire soundfield is always more cohesive and enveloping. AL just sounded better to me. Others may feel differently.

The AVR / Dirac sounds very good with Atmos, but I do wonder if AL would improve upon things, but I have no way to compare. Then again, we get back to number of boxes and simplicity of the AVR (albeit more measurement points) .....

sledwards · Jul 4, 2024

Mike-48 said:
@sledwards -- I smiled when I read your last comment.

Indeed, I may be too used to the relative ease of a DSP preamp (with DRC, crossovers, and DAC) to switch horses at this point. I've used those for ~20 years now, and at times even they can try my patience. That goes in spades now that I have four subwoofers hooked up. And as I've got older, my interest in fiddling has diminished, as I'd rather watch the sunset or listen to a string quartet.

One always comes up against software bugs or misfeatures or just things that aren't implemented or explained very well.

I'm also considering a NAD M66 and plan to spend time with one before deciding. I don't know Dirac, but the all-in-one hardware solution is appealing. I hope it will be an improvement in a few areas while not going backwards in others.

Roon can easily handle the 2-channel mix to 6 or more channels. AL writes out a config file along with convolution wav files for Roon which tells Roon how to route your subs based upon a 2-channel data input. No special streamer or hardware is required. Your NUC will be fine for the task. You can create multiple convolution curves based upon different target curves to adjust for "tone". If balance control is required, that can be performed in the Motu interface as required. If you want to change convolution filters on the fly, Roon is not a good choice. Something like HQPlayer or JRiver is better suited for the task.

Mike-48 · Jul 5, 2024

sledwards said:
Roon can easily handle the 2-channel mix to 6 or more channels. AL writes out a config file along with convolution wav files for Roon which tells Roon how to route your subs based upon a 2-channel data input. No special streamer or hardware is required. Your NUC will be fine for the task. You can create multiple convolution curves based upon different target curves to adjust for "tone". If balance control is required, that can be performed in the Motu interface as required. If you want to change convolution filters on the fly, Roon is not a good choice. Something like HQPlayer or JRiver is better suited for the task.

Thank you, Steve. That's great information, and I really appreciate your following through. I have led beginners through some tricky concepts myself, and it's usually not easy.

Yes, my NUC will be fine for the convolution, of that I'm pretty sure. I got an i7 processor in it in case I wanted to do anything like this.

The remaining question is getting the signal from NUC to Motu (or other multichannel DAC) through my home network. The NUC is on a network rack with other networking gear, such as the NAS holding the music files. The Motu will be in the music room across the house. I've put in an query to Auralic asking whether my Aries G1 stream receiver will accept a six-channel signal and send it to a DAC via USB. If so, I think I understand how this could be done . . . maybe.

It does seem the more common case is a music system including a general-purpose PC, so the same PC can be used for measuring, generating filters, and controlling playback. Having spent a 30-year career at the PC constantly, and still using one for everything, I have banished them from the music room.

What would be needed to use Audiolense (2.4 system)

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