Tackling the toughest room tomorrow, the "Greatroom"

JStewart · Jan 8, 2022

Are you using a miniDSP 2x4HD in this set-up? I can’t recall.
If you are then you might consider using MSO to Eq the subs. It automates filter calculations with the goal of having the same response in multiple locations. This should hopefully address the 67 to 90ish hump on the subwoofer chart.
I would also try using MSO generated filters to eq up to 160Hz to possibly help with the subs/mains overlap above the 80Hz XO.

3dbinCanada · Jan 9, 2022

JStewart said:
Are you using a miniDSP 2x4HD in this set-up? I can’t recall.
If you are then you might consider using MSO to Eq the subs. It automates filter calculations with the goal of having the same response in multiple locations. This should hopefully address the 67 to 90ish hump on the subwoofer chart.
I would also try using MSO generated filters to eq up to 160Hz to possibly help with the subs/mains overlap above the 80Hz XO.

I am using a MiniDSP2x4HD with 3 subs. I went at it again today to play with sub positioning and measurements .Today's results, I got a smoother bass response at the CLP and RLP but the LLP which is open to the stairwell and hallway always gives me trouble and the worst response. I think this is as good as its going to get until I get rid of the old sofa, chair and ottoman and get the new smaller furniture inside. It will allow me more placement options.

Last weeks results

Todays and last weeks sub placement and orientation. The right sub is now facing the sofa instead of out into the room and the left sub is pulled closer to the left speaker.

3dbinCanada · Jan 21, 2022

I didnt like the measurements I was seeing and I thought I could tighten things up so I tried next day again playing with new sub positioning. Everything else stayed status quo.

Here are the measured results.
Subs 1-3 Raw response across all 3 LP

Post EQ response of Subs1-3 across only 2LP. Missing the Left LP

Full frequency with speaker set to small and YPAO PEQ results turned off

Full frequency with YPAO PEQ filters set to flat

JStewart · Jan 21, 2022

MSO - Multi Sub Optimizer

Check it out at your leisure.

3dbinCanada · Feb 14, 2022

I swapped out the KX-800 deck for a K720 auto reversing deck that I've had in storage. Plays really nice.

3dbinCanada · Apr 8, 2022

The new sofa and chair are in, waiting on a couple of ottomans to come in to complete the room. Did another sub placement/REW EQ exercise. Measurements to follow late but this what the room looks like now;

JStewart · Apr 8, 2022

The view out the window ain’t too shabby either! Nice.

CAAudiophile · Apr 9, 2022

Another way to manage multi. subs is to use the Impulse Response and time align the right SUB with the Left Sub by changing the phase on the subs that will give you a great bass, i.e say your left sub I.R. is at 10 msec from the listening position try to get the same time for the Right sub by keep changing the phase of the right sub until the I.R. match that of the left sub at 10 msec, then you are done with moving subs around with great and much balanced BASS all around the room. .

3dbinCanada · Mar 1, 2023

Yesterday while I was doing the spring cleaning gig in the kitchen, I was listening to the system. After the Led Zep, I went over to the system and placed my hands over the AVR and noticed it was rather warm. I measured the air gap from the top of the AVR to the shelf and its only an inch. I'm worried that if I uses like this for an extended time (many months) that it will eventually break and malfunction, most likely the HDMI cards. I went on to Amazon and saw this listed for $169 Cdn . Did some quick measurements and I'm able to place the unit on top of the AVR if I remove the shelf. The unit exhausts to the front. The chassis is made of steel and can support an additional 30 pounds so I can safely put my deck and 4K player on it.

JStewart · Mar 1, 2023

3dbinCanada said:
Yesterday while I was doing the spring cleaning gig in the kitchen, I was listening to the system. After the Led Zep, I went over to the system and placed my hands over the AVR and noticed it was rather warm. I measured the air gap from the top of the AVR to the shelf and its only an inch. I'm worried that if I uses like this for an extended time (many months) that it will eventually break and malfunction, most likely the HDMI cards. I went on to Amazon and saw this listed for $169 Cdn . Did some quick measurements and I'm able to place the unit on top of the AVR if I remove the shelf. The unit exhausts to the front. The chassis is made of steel and can support an additional 30 pounds so I can safely put my deck and 4K player on it.

View attachment 59770

Is it quiet? That’s the only reason I can think of, not to.

I kept a Yamaha set up like yours is now for a little more than a decade. It would get pretty hot too. A voltage sag after a hurricane killed it so no idea how much longer it might have gone.

That said, at worst you’ll have piece of mind. At best you‘ll have that and a device that lasts longer. Seems a bargain.

3dbinCanada · Mar 9, 2023

I received the S8 version yesterday and installed it into the system and attempted to clean up on the wiring a little bit.

3dbinCanada · Nov 15, 2023

I've been a busy boy these last few days spending 1.5 days on my greatroom system with my PC, REW and mic after having swapped out the PSB 800 towers for a pair of PSB400 bookshelves.

I know you are all going to tell me to pull them away from the back wall but I get a real nasty bass suck out between 115 to 142 Hz at the listener position. It was such a bad response that even the subs couldn't pull up the response. I saw the mid bass suck out and I wonder if the height of the stand had anything to do with it. The tall stands sit at 23" tall while the short stands are 17" tall.

The first graph below shows the difference in response between tall and short stands when the speakers were placed adjacent to the front of the media console. You can see the deep notch centered around 132 Hz on the tall stands verses a much shallower notch at a 115Hz on the shorter stand.

The next graph shows the difference in response between tall and short stands when the speakers were placed near the back wall beside the media console. The response while on the tall stands is only 3db less compared to the adjacent placement from the above graph. You can also see a big reduction of the notch on the smaller stands at the back compared to the previous graph.

The last graph shows the difference in response between the adjacent placement and the backwall placement of the speakers on short stands. Now you understand why the bookshelves are pushed towards the backwall.

Pat2_AdjacentMedia_vs_Backwall_Shortstands_PureDirect.jpg

3dbinCanada · Nov 15, 2023

After I got the speaker locations dialed in, I went to work on the subs. I left the sub locations alone but used the miniDSP2x4HD to introduce delays on sub 1 for a better response pre REQ EQ.

The first graph shows the individual responses of subs 1 thru 3 and the combined response of all three subs (green trace) before I EQ them with REW.

Individual Sub and Combined Sub Response.jpg

The next graph shows the difference in response between the combined sub responses and the combined sub responses but adding a 5ms delay on sub1 using the MiniDSP

Combined Subs and Combined Subs with 5ms delay on Sub 1 Pre REW EQ.jpg

The last graph shows the difference between Pre REW EQ and Post REW EQ

I may redo this again and play around with the delays on the individual subs to see if I can remove that notch around 120 Hz.

JStewart · Nov 15, 2023

If you get bored this winter, check out MultiSub Optimizer.

3dbinCanada · Nov 16, 2023

JStewart said:
If you get bored this winter, check out MultiSub Optimizer.

How does it compare to REW?

JStewart · Nov 16, 2023

3dbinCanada said:
How does it compare to REW?

It serves a different purpose. MSO is for multiple subwoofer integration that results in the desired target response for multiple seats or a larger sweet spot. Optionally, it will also integrate subwoofer groups with mains.
It would make short work of the 120Hz dip.
The downside is a fairly steep learning investment, but if you’re into learning it can be a fun project.
The fun learning part is the only reason I brought it up.

3dbinCanada · Nov 17, 2023

Its a been a rainy day today so I took another cut into integrating the 3 subs into my main system. Much much better results this time. I took my time and was bound and determined to get it right. Data and graphs will come later tonight or tomorrow. I'm tired from this effort and I still have to make Minnie a new batch of Hamburger Helper plus take her out for a walk.

It turns out that moving sub2 was key to get the response I was looking for. It also allowed me to pull the speakers back away from the wall without getting that bass suck out that I had previously. I still have to use the shorter stands as the response with the taller stands was still bad.

The measurement mess

Sub 2 which was located beside the right speaker has been moved to the left corner of the sofa firing towards the system.

Now looks like this;

3dbinCanada · Nov 19, 2023

Here are the measurements

The first graph shows the difference in response of sub 2 only from the old and new locations.

New Location verses Old Location Sub 2.jpg

You may think its not much of a trade off or even worse but look at the combined response shown in the next graph. It shows the sub response before and after REW EQ has been applied.

The graph below shows the response for my movie configuration between PEQ=Through vs PEQ=Flat

The graph below shows the response for my music listening configuration between PEQ=Through vs PEQ=Flat vs Pure Direct (no PEQ)

Pattern 2 Music Setup Thru vs Flat vs PureDirect.jpg

3dbinCanada · Feb 17, 2024

Now that my last dog has passed away 3 weeks ago, I removed the dog bed from the great room and have swapped out a pair of PSB400 for a pair of PSB500. I also spent the day moving that one sub aroud and playing with delays in REW to get that 3rd sub integrated with the PSB 500s. Here's what the room looks like now.

Sonnie Parker · Feb 17, 2024

Nice and cozy... what does your combine response look like now since you moved the sub?

Gerry Iaria · Feb 17, 2024

3dbinCanada said:
Now that my last dog has passed away 3 weeks ago, I removed the dog bed from the great room and have swapped out a pair of PSB400 for a pair of PSB500. I also spent the day moving that one sub aroud and playing with delays in REW to get that 3rd sub integrated with the PSB 500s. Here's what the room looks like now.

View attachment 68318 View attachment 68319 View attachment 68320 View attachment 68321 View attachment 68322

That's a really nice room, from here the tv looks small, maybe it isn't

3dbinCanada · Feb 17, 2024

Sonnie said:
Nice and cozy... what does your combine response look like now since you moved the sub?

Here are the curves. I forgot to make and keep a Pure Direct response trace running the speakers as large without the subs helping out. Here's what I got.

The prediction made by REW

The PreEQ/PostEQ response of subs only.

Combined Sub Response PreEQ vs Post Eq.jpg

Movie Mode:

Music Mode:

3dbinCanada · Feb 17, 2024

Gerry Iaria said:
That's a really nice room, from here the tv looks small, maybe it isn't

Thank you. I have room to grow the TV but I'll wait until it breaks down before I do. I'm happy with it.

Gerry Iaria · Feb 17, 2024

3dbinCanada said:
Here are the curves. I forgot to make and keep a Pure Direct response trace running the speakers as large without the subs helping out. Here's what I got.

The prediction made by REW

View attachment 68326

The PreEQ/PostEQ response of subs only.
View attachment 68323

Movie Mode:
View attachment 68324

Music Mode:
View attachment 68325

Wished mine looked as good as this

3dbinCanada · Dec 10, 2024

I finally got my latest speaker purchase set up in the great room. I swapped out a pair of PSB-600 for a pair of PSB-1000, their top speaker in that series. It went from this

to this. Measurement will follow in a couple of days.

Tackling the toughest room tomorrow, the "Greatroom"

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