Onkyo Reimagined: The Brand Reveals Big Plans for 2025 and Beyond

tjcinnamon · Dec 18, 2024

Would love if they added a non-Dirac EQ option. Something with flexibility. Audyssey MQX and regular with the mobile app or MiniDSP with 8 channels or less….

I’ve come to appreciate home rolling and Dirac is incredibly buggy.

Todd Anderson · Dec 18, 2024

I highly doubt that we'll see that. They are all in with Dirac, and I'd assume we'll continue to see that relationship pushed further with new products next year.

What are you finding buggy with Dirac? Is it the phone app?

Mike Schramm · Dec 18, 2024

Exciting stuff. I really like my current Onkyo and the value/performance ratio the company puts forth. For whatever reason I’ve always felt they were a step behind Denon/Marantz, I hope this levels the playing field.

Todd Anderson · Dec 19, 2024

That’s not a “for whatever reason” feeling. It’s legit. They were a hot number because they offered Audyssey, but took a massive hit about 10 years ago when hdmi board failures became a proverbial monkey on the back.

That really hurt Onkyo’s reputation.

Then, move forward to roughly 2016/17, and financial issues forced them to sever ties with Audyssey. AccuEQ and FireConnect became features, neither were accepted by enthusiasts, and they really started floundering. Then financial issues clamped down. There was a 2 year period where the company was on life support and nothing of consequence hit the market.

It’s really a case of the mighty falling and rising again. This latest crop of gear is great.

Mike Schramm · Dec 19, 2024

That's really interesting. I knew they had Audyssey and dropped it, but I wasn't aware of why. Makes sense that it would be for financial reasons. I picked up my RZ830 in '19 for only $600, which a comparable Denon would have legitimately been twice that price. Granted, the RZ830 crapped out on me, while still under warranty), so Onkyo replaced it with an RZ840, which I have had since.

I do wish it had Audyssey. I have no experience with it at all so I wonder how much of a difference it would make. However, I've got things as manually calibrated as I can with REW, so to my ears everything sounds great. Add that to the $600 price and I'm pretty satisfied.

Very excited for the new crop!

Todd Anderson · Dec 19, 2024

Mike, taking time to properly set up your system has probably gotten you much closer to ideal than a scenario where you didn't do that and solely relied on auto-EQ.

Here's the good news: because you went to CEDIA, you've heard professionally calibrated systems. You have a good baseline to guide your ears (which are probably already highly in tune with what sounds good).

Could Audyssey get you further in the bass region?? Maybe. No guarantees, tho. Keep riding that RZ840!

tjcinnamon · Dec 19, 2024

Todd Anderson said:
I highly doubt that we'll see that. They are all in with Dirac, and I'd assume we'll continue to see that relationship pushed further with new products next year.

What are you finding buggy with Dirac? Is it the phone app?

No calibrations yield the same results. The issue they had for year with the “not enough data for measurement”. It’s a black box and youre stuck with what they give you for delays and trims (depending on the SKU).

I’ve used it since 2017. It had a few good runs of non-bugginess but overall it’s been terribly buggy for years.

Sonnie Parker · Dec 20, 2024

Hmmm... I've had Dirac for a very long time with my miniDSP, HTP-1, NAD M33, and StormAudio (with DLART). I can't remember it ever being buggy for me. It has worked beautifully, and I would not own a processor in my main audio system without it.

I don't ever remember getting an error "not enough data for measurement."

Dirac is implemented differently by the manufacturers, so issues are likely not Dirac's fault as much as the manufacturer not providing enough processing power for it or some other issue that is not handled correctly.

Delays and trims can be adjusted if the manufacturer allows it... that's not on Dirac... it's up to the manufacturer.

If you are measuring different locations, I can see where you may not get the same results because it is nearly impossible to get the mic in the exact precise location every time you move it. I usually just measure my one primary listening position for several reasons that suit me best. The only reason I remeasure is because I change something (speakers, subs, etc) so it may be a different calibration result. This is normal and should be the same for any auto-EQ system.

tjcinnamon · Dec 20, 2024

Sonnie Parker said:
Hmmm... I've had Dirac for a very long time with my miniDSP, HTP-1, NAD M33, and StormAudio (with DLART). I can't remember it ever being buggy for me. It has worked beautifully, and I would not own a processor in my main audio system without it.

I don't ever remember getting an error "not enough data for measurement."

Dirac is implemented differently by the manufacturers, so issues are likely not Dirac's fault as much as the manufacturer not providing enough processing power for it or some other issue that is not handled correctly.

Delays and trims can be adjusted if the manufacturer allows it... that's not on Dirac... it's up to the manufacturer.

If you are measuring different locations, I can see where you may not get the same results because it is nearly impossible to get the mic in the exact precise location every time you move it. I usually just measure my one primary listening position for several reasons that suit me best. The only reason I remeasure is because I change something (speakers, subs, etc) so it may be a different calibration result. This is normal and should be the same for any auto-EQ system.

I had the NAD 758v3, the Denon 4700, then Denon 6800. Delays can be modified on the Denon without bass control but the other modules don’t allow it.

The calibration results are all over the map and I regularly check AVS Dirac forums just to keep up with things. I also only measure one seated position with no more than a radius of 1’.

I’ve even left the mic alone and will get different delays. Another time, I had delays that were .1ms different, I barely moved the mic by 1cm or less and it moved it by over 1ms.

Which matters for the stereo phantom center. It’s easy to hear that it’s not centered.

The past 9 months, I haven’t been able to reliably complete a calibration due to the windows issue they’ve been having and the old CEO even addressed that on a video. Now I’ve only tried a few times because getting the calibration correct is such a pain. I bought a umik 2 which has its own internal clock and I understand in 3.11 they took over gain control from the OS.

Does Storm allow you to change the delays with DL-ART?

The only reason I remain so invested in Dirac is DL-ART but it’s my understanding that’s a ways off because they can’t get Bass control to work reliably (ironically on Onkyo/Pioneer gear).

Also, what are your impressions of ART? I have tried to home roll something using a minidsp and delay tool. It’s a proof of concept, so I haven’t been able to finish it.

Home rolled Dirac ART - Experiment

www.avsforum.com

I’m really big on active cancelation ever since my Polk L800’s blew my mind (which is why my phantom center is so pronounced)!

FargateOne · Saturday at 8:25 AM

tjcinnamon said:
I had the NAD 758v3, the Denon 4700, then Denon 6800. Delays can be modified on the Denon without bass control but the other modules don’t allow it.

The calibration results are all over the map and I regularly check AVS Dirac forums just to keep up with things. I also only measure one seated position with no more than a radius of 1’.

I’ve even left the mic alone and will get different delays. Another time, I had delays that were .1ms different, I barely moved the mic by 1cm or less and it moved it by over 1ms.

Which matters for the stereo phantom center. It’s easy to hear that it’s not centered.

The past 9 months, I haven’t been able to reliably complete a calibration due to the windows issue they’ve been having and the old CEO even addressed that on a video. Now I’ve only tried a few times because getting the calibration correct is such a pain. I bought a umik 2 which has its own internal clock and I understand in 3.11 they took over gain control from the OS.

Does Storm allow you to change the delays with DL-ART?

The only reason I remain so invested in Dirac is DL-ART but it’s my understanding that’s a ways off because they can’t get Bass control to work reliably (ironically on Onkyo/Pioneer gear).

Also, what are your impressions of ART? I have tried to home roll something using a minidsp and delay tool. It’s a proof of concept, so I haven’t been able to finish it.

Home rolled Dirac ART - Experiment

www.avsforum.com

I’m really big on active cancelation ever since my Polk L800’s blew my mind (which is why my phantom center is so pronounced)!

I have Arcam AVR21 and agree with quite all your post.
It appears to me that Art is dealyed because we have prooved that a unique DLBC software in multiple brands isn't reliable. Arcam/Jbl are stuck with a 2 years old firmware version with important bugs in it and no fixes seem to come soon. Yesterday I pointed an Avs member (Denon or marantz don't know) that his DLBC results inverted the polarity of one speaker among a group of 2! Etc. Etc.
@Sonnie Parker I understand what you say Dirac itself is good, but implemented in many brands without certification approval procedure is, in my mind, a mistake from Dirac.

kevinp · Saturday at 8:33 AM

Mike Schramm said:
That's really interesting. I knew they had Audyssey and dropped it, but I wasn't aware of why. Makes sense that it would be for financial reasons. I picked up my RZ830 in '19 for only $600, which a comparable Denon would have legitimately been twice that price. Granted, the RZ830 crapped out on me, while still under warranty), so Onkyo replaced it with an RZ840, which I have had since.

I do wish it had Audyssey. I have no experience with it at all so I wonder how much of a difference it would make. However, I've got things as manually calibrated as I can with REW, so to my ears everything sounds great. Add that to the $600 price and I'm pretty satisfied.

Very excited for the new crop!

Reliability and support have been an issue with Onkyo for some time. I’ve had a NR1030 that I liked but, it died of HDMI failure. My current RZ50 has been in for repair 4-5 times and it’s less than a year old. Onkyo has yet to agree to replace it or even the amp board they’ve identified as the problem.

Sonnie Parker · Saturday at 9:47 AM

I take it back... I did have issues with Dirac in the Audio Control Maestro 9 that was sent to me for review back several years ago. Dirac was all over it with me... had three techs working on it with me, but there were too many issues with the processor to overcome the Dirac issues. The Maestro was a disaster. They even sent me a replacement unit, but it had the same issues. It would shut off unexpectedly, and without any kind of warning, have a loud pop, startling us all (we were trying to use it during one of the evaluations), and we were afraid we were going to fry some speakers.

Does Audyssey certify the products in which it is installed? I was not aware of it. I think having this type of product require certification would be a nightmare and keep users from enjoying their systems.

I don't get different delay measurements if I don't move the mic... so I can't answer what might be going on with that.

I have never, ever had any issues with a center image. We had quite a few speaker evaluations here at my home over the years. Dozens of speakers have been measured and equalized with Dirac. It's always worked as it should with a perfect center image, and the same target curve on every speaker was always accomplished. We've shared all those graphs in our evaluation reports.

Never had any Windows issues here, so can't comment on it.

The UMIK-2 did give me measurement issues with my StormAudio. Matt Trinkein advised not to use it and to use the UMIK-1. He explained why, but I don't remember his reasoning... I'll see if I can find out.

I like DLART. I remember when I first ran it, without very much tuning, it was an experience for me vs. my HTP-1. Not long after I received it, I had an issue with the MK3 and had to send it in for a replacement. During that time, I connected my HTP-1 back into the system and realized just how much I was missing. I used the same target curves, but the bass was no doubt different and better with DLART. As soon as I received my replacement MK3, the magic was back. Since then I've tuned it fifty-eleven times, experimenting with different levels and supporting speakers, and added more subs (now at 8). I can't say I've heard a drastic difference in the various tweaks... probably more subtle and hard to notice, but it sounds really good in my room (to me and a few others who have heard it - and I don't think they were lying just to make me feel good- lol).

If you are close enough to visit... let me know, and we'll schedule a time for a few hours. Or... for that matter, I'm open to doing another evaluation event if I can find a couple of participants who know how to write well enough without editing. Wayne can't travel any longer with his illness. We might get Dennis back down here again, as he's said he would be up to it if the timing is right. We're talking about staying here at my place for 4-5 nights. You gotta be clean, no bad hygiene, no drinking, no smoking, etc.

I'll have to check on what is adjustable next time I dive into some measurements.

Todd Anderson · Saturday at 10:33 AM

Dirac isn’t delivered to manufacturers as a plug and play chip. Instead, they are given instructions on how how the technology needs to be implemented - kind of like a road map - and it’s up to each individual manufacturer to encode it.

Here in lies the advantage of Dirac on equipment like StormAudio. They do all of coding in house, so they have ultimate control over how it behaves on their processors. Most other manufacturers outsource.

I’ve heard rumblings the ART likely won’t find its way to consumer oriented AVRs, largely because of processing power. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. But, it was announced two years ago and everyone outside of Storm was given 10 months for development and a year has passed since. I *hope* it becomes available, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

FargateOne · Saturday at 11:29 AM

Todd Anderson said:
I’ve heard rumblings the ART likely won’t find its way to consumer oriented AVRs, largely because of processing power

My 2 cents here. Not every consumer can afford Atmos 16-32-64 speakers settings. Many, like me are or must be happy with plain old 5.1 or 7.1 system. And we can enjoy it..
So , I guess Art for 7.1 asks less processing than 32 channels, isn't it? Why we should not get Art then with our not so old receivers. Because money talk and the industry wants us to buy new devices every 2 years...I guess :dontknow:

Todd Anderson · Saturday at 3:54 PM

FargateOne said:
My 2 cents here. Not every consumer can afford Atmos 16-32-64 speakers settings. Many, like me are or must be happy with plain old 5.1 or 7.1 system. And we can enjoy it..
So , I guess Art for 7.1 asks less processing than 32 channels, isn't it? Why we should not get Art then with our not so old receivers. Because money talk and the industry wants us to buy new devices every 2 years...I guess

Agree!

As with any product line, there’s going to be tiered levels of performance. But when it comes to something like ART, companies face licensing fees on top of development/implementation fees. I’d imagine that’s one reason you *might* see it land on new models.

Sonnie Parker · Saturday at 9:20 PM

DLART is going to perform better with multiple subs in most cases... unless 4-6 speakers in your 5.1 or 7.1 setup will play down to 20-30 Hz since the ART portion is only designed to work up to 150 Hz. I personally don't think you will get much out of it if you have a 5.1 or 7.1 setup with small speakers and one sub. My guess is you'll only see it in 16+ channel processors that are on the expensive side.

FargateOne · Sunday at 7:52 AM

My 2 fronts spec say 35Hz but in room ,measurements they go to 28issh Hz at -3dB and I have 2 subs so maybe I would benefit of Art. I must say that I am not in a rush since Dirac is not is a rush to solve serious bugs with DLBC version above 3.4.4 and Arcam among other receivers brands

tjcinnamon · Sunday at 10:36 AM

Todd Anderson said:
Dirac isn’t delivered to manufacturers as a plug and play chip. Instead, they are given instructions on how how the technology needs to be implemented - kind of like a road map - and it’s up to each individual manufacturer to encode it.

Here in lies the advantage of Dirac on equipment like StormAudio. They do all of coding in house, so they have ultimate control over how it behaves on their processors. Most other manufacturers outsource.

I’ve heard rumblings the ART likely won’t find its way to consumer oriented AVRs, largely because of processing power. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. But, it was announced two years ago and everyone outside of Storm was given 10 months for development and a year has passed since. I *hope* it becomes available, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

The tech evangelist at DM has said in multiple videos that the 4800 on up has enough compute for it. He said he was waiting on more testing.

tjcinnamon · Sunday at 10:37 AM

I forget where I heard it but it was giving side surrounds a little too much juice and that needed to be addressed as well

Sonnie Parker · Sunday at 1:16 PM

FargateOne said:
My 2 fronts spec say 35Hz but in room ,measurements they go to 28issh Hz at -3dB and I have 2 subs so maybe I would benefit of Art. I must say that I am not in a rush since Dirac is not is a rush to solve serious bugs with DLBC version above 3.4.4 and Arcam among other receivers brands

It is possible... and the room will also have an effect on it. If your room needs help, it will help.

Mike Schramm · Sunday at 6:56 PM

kevinp said:
Reliability and support have been an issue with Onkyo for some time. I’ve had a NR1030 that I liked but, it died of HDMI failure. My current RZ50 has been in for repair 4-5 times and it’s less than a year old. Onkyo has yet to agree to replace it or even the amp board they’ve identified as the problem.

Sadly, you aren’t the first person to have a story like this that I have heard. I’m happy they replaced my RZ830 and that the 840 is still doing fine. But their reputation isn’t great. Hopefully this new line changes that.

Todd Anderson · Monday at 6:09 AM

tjcinnamon said:
The tech evangelist at DM has said in multiple videos that the 4800 on up has enough compute for it. He said he was waiting on more testing.

Anything is possible - only relaying a general impression from chatter I’ve heard behind the curtain.

If it happens, I know hardcore enthusiasts will be happy!

tjcinnamon · Monday at 7:05 PM

Todd Anderson said:
Anything is possible - only relaying a general impression from chatter I’ve heard behind the curtain.

If it happens, I know hardcore enthusiasts will be happy!

That would be a bummer. It would be nice if they brought it to the AV10 and flagship for DM

Id have a hard time giving up the flexibility of audyssey in an AVR. I need something with an option that is highly customizable. Dirac is not that. But I want ART because what it does to decay is nothing short of amazing.

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