The Pursuit of High Fidelity

I find your statement that records (LPs) don't reproduce below 100 Hz a bit errant. Low E on a regular guitar is 82.41 Hz, and on a bass guitar, half of that. No issue with either of those frequencies on my LPs from the 60s and 70s. And if you claim it's due to RIAA EQ, that's irrelevant. Nearly all recording sources must alter the signal for their process. I won't contest the S/N statement......
On your claim of a 16kHz upper limit, take a look at how CD-4 quad LPs were reproduced, albeit not very well, but bandwidth went up to 40kHz.

I think it was because vinyl playback was far from perfected back in the day... and much below 100Hz might cause issues with tracking. 100Hz to 10kHz was probably the standard, although there may have been a few to reach down into the 80Hz range. We have albums from the early '60s on up... those old ones lack any resemblance of bass, that is for sure.

No doubt we have come a long way in the last 50-60 years. The progression over the last 10 years has been phenomenal, and even the last 5 years have been incredible. I'm sitting here listening via Roon, and the quality is crazy good—this is streaming.

pickindoug said:

I find your statement that records (LPs) don't reproduce below 100 Hz a bit errant. Low E on a regular guitar is 82.41 Hz, and on a bass guitar, half of that. No issue with either of those frequencies on my LPs from the 60s and 70s. And if you claim it's due to RIAA EQ, that's irrelevant. Nearly all recording sources must alter the signal for their process. I won't contest the S/N statement......
On your claim of a 16kHz upper limit, take a look at how CD-4 quad LPs were reproduced, albeit not very well, but bandwidth went up to 40kHz.

Click to expand...

Hi Doug, I owned 5000 vinyl albums and was a co-founder of Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs in 1977 so I know we can get decent bass from vinyl LPs. The bandwidth limitation at 100 Hz is meant to allow more play time, using the RIAA equalization is a handy way to solve the problem of recording time. Sorry for being a bit errant in my description.

RIAA equalization is a form of pre-emphasis on recording and de-emphasis on playback. A recording is made with the low frequencies reduced and the high frequencies boosted, and on playback, the opposite occurs. The net result is a flat frequency response, but with attenuation of high-frequency noise such as hiss and clicks that arise from the recording medium. Reducing the low frequencies also limits the excursions the cutter needs to make when cutting a groove. Groove width is thus reduced, allowing more grooves to fit into a given surface area, permitting longer recording times. This also reduces physical stresses on the stylus, which might otherwise cause distortion or groove damage during playback.

A potential drawback of the system is that rumble from the playback turntable's drive mechanism is amplified by the low-frequency boost that occurs on playback. Players must, therefore, be designed to limit rumble, more so than if RIAA equalization did not occur.

The biggest drawback of vinyl LPs is the limited dynamic range of 60 dB. The original 2" magnetic master tape running at 15 IPS can reach 85 dB dynamic range and since our hobby is called "high fidelity", the loss of dynamic range from the original makes vinyl a "lossy" source. There's nothing wrong with that except its not high fidelity, equal to the original.

This is the RIAA equalization curve for playback of vinyl records. The recording curve performs the inverse function, reducing low frequencies and boosting high frequencies.

Sonnie Parker said:

I think it was because vinyl playback was far from perfected back in the day... and much below 100Hz might cause issues with tracking. 100Hz to 10kHz was probably the standard, although there may have been a few to reach down into the 80Hz range. We have albums from the early '60s on up... those old ones lack any resemblance of bass, that is for sure.

No doubt we have come a long way in the last 50-60 years. The progression over the last 10 years has been phenomenal, and even the last 5 years have been incredible. I'm sitting here listening via Roon, and the quality is crazy good—this is streaming.

Click to expand...

With all due respect to your experience, my 1960s experience with LPs was quite different. I learned to play electric bass by playing the same passages over and over. This would not have been possible if the frequency response was weak below 100 Hz and with decent extension to at least 40 Hz. And my system was nothing fancy, kit built tube amp, homemade speaker, and a cheap LP changer with a low end magnetic cartridge fitted.

According to my Radiotron Designer's Handbook, circa 1953, 33 rpm test records made in the 1950s provided test tones as low as 30 Hz, and some went as high as 14 kHz.

With respect to any progress made with LP quality over the years, none of the newer LP purchases I've made are any better than the well recorded and pressed examples of my 60s and 70s originals. There was definitely more variability in quality then, largely due to high production counts. And then there are the exceptions, the D to D from Sheffield Labs and others.

Today, I'm mostly the lazy listener, with 6000 FLAC files in a drive and a nice little streamer to allow me to select on the fly. LPs for special occasions. Some LPs sound better than the digital files, but due to the hard life many led back in the day, most don't.

Bob Rapoport said:

Hi Doug, I owned 5000 vinyl albums and was a co-founder of Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs in 1977 so I know we can get decent bass from vinyl LPs. The bandwidth limitation at 100 Hz is meant to allow more play time, using the RIAA equalization is a handy way to solve the problem of recording time. Sorry for being a bit errant in my description.

RIAA equalization is a form of pre-emphasis on recording and de-emphasis on playback. A recording is made with the low frequencies reduced and the high frequencies boosted, and on playback, the opposite occurs. The net result is a flat frequency response, but with attenuation of high-frequency noise such as hiss and clicks that arise from the recording medium. Reducing the low frequencies also limits the excursions the cutter needs to make when cutting a groove. Groove width is thus reduced, allowing more grooves to fit into a given surface area, permitting longer recording times. This also reduces physical stresses on the stylus, which might otherwise cause distortion or groove damage during playback.

A potential drawback of the system is that rumble from the playback turntable's drive mechanism is amplified by the low-frequency boost that occurs on playback. Players must, therefore, be designed to limit rumble, more so than if RIAA equalization did not occur.

The biggest drawback of vinyl LPs is the limited dynamic range of 60 dB. The original 2" magnetic master tape running at 15 IPS can reach 85 dB dynamic range and since our hobby is called "high fidelity", the loss of dynamic range from the original makes vinyl a "lossy" source. There's nothing wrong with that except its not high fidelity, equal to the original.

This is the RIAA equalization curve for playback of vinyl records. The recording curve performs the inverse function, reducing low frequencies and boosting high frequencies.
View attachment 77917

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No recording of an acoustic instrument is 100% equal to the original, regardless of the medium used. The question that many audiophiles wrestle with is how it sounds vs how it measures, with those who listen to music preferring the former concept vs those who listen to their gear preferring the latter. The RIAA curve, along with all of the other LP repro curves that led to the adopted standard, was designed to make the most of an inherently flawed but highly marketable medium. Dolby's manipulation of non-linear recording corrected during playback to reduce tape hiss on cassettes is another fine example of not allowing perfection to be the enemy of good. With your background, I'm sure you enjoy the music!

pickindoug said:

No recording of an acoustic instrument is 100% equal to the original, regardless of the medium used. The question that many audiophiles wrestle with is how it sounds vs how it measures, with those who listen to music preferring the former concept vs those who listen to their gear preferring the latter. The RIAA curve, along with all of the other LP repro curves that led to the adopted standard, was designed to make the most of an inherently flawed but highly marketable medium. Dolby's manipulation of non-linear recording corrected during playback to reduce tape hiss on cassettes is another fine example of not allowing perfection to be the enemy of good. With your background, I'm sure you enjoy the music!

Click to expand...

Just ask yourself about the meaning of the words "High Fidelity". That's what we call our hobby. The pursuit of high fidelity means hearing a one to one copy of the original master recording, with equal bandwidth and the dynamic range of the original recording. There's a reason the Studios and record labels protect Blu-rays, SACDs, and AV Streaming against copyright infringement but allow us to copy everything else. The storage media of all the earlier generations had limitations that prevented us from hearing that one to one copy but with storage capacity today, we can as long as we faithfully follow the security protocols.