HDR on Epson 5040ub/tw8300

[Bhoot]

As we drive on the left side of the road with a RHS steering our PJs carry a different name as well on this side of the world.
I did a complete upgrade to my equipment and decided to splurge a bit. With the Aventage A3070 and Kef t205 with a pair of kef t101 and TAGA in ceiling I would say I have overkilled my small room (14x12x10) with my 7.1.2. The only upgrade left after the sound system was the display and since lens memory was my primary requirement (to watch movies larger than TV shows) I had very few options. The HC4000/tw7300 is not launched in my country (and probably will never be), I took the plunge for the more expensive option and got the 5040ub aka tw8300 with a DIY 2.4 ALR silver screen.
Since I live in a condo most of my BD disks are stored off site and I stream everything through a server > raspberry pi 3 > AVR > PJ. Obviously as good as the pi is, it lacks HDR.
I ran the plex server on my server and used the PS4 with HDR settings on to try and see HDR 10 for myself. I generally calibrate with eye and I would say my tv (non HDR) gets the image pretty nicely but with HDR I was shocked.
The file was a 10 bit 1080p x265 (original source 4K BluRay), changed the colour gamut from rec709 to bt2020 and selected HDR 2. Now I started balancing my image. Luckily I did this of the Mockingjay Disk, one that I’m familiar with and realised a very major problem.
Since HDR 2 makes the image very dark I had to crank up the brightness. With that done the dark image in the foreground would become clear and image in background (for e.g. a scenery outside a window) would wash out completely. Similarly the window sheers lost their design details. Going back to SDR the image became washed out overall but all the details like a building outside the said window and the pattern on the sheers reappeared.
It could be that my PS4 (non pro) is not able to push HDR correctly. I’m buying a nvidia shield to replace my raspberry purely due to lack of streaming services, so I might try the same thing once again. For now I would want recommendations on what I did wrong or didn’t do. I probably won’t be able to find a light meter or get it in my side of the world. I’m okay TBH going non HDR but again if I have it I should use it will always bother me.

 

[mechman]

I haven't done a ton of HDR viewing yet with the 5040 that I have for review, but from what I have seen so far is it is rarely dark. Do you have the latest firmware?

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

This is from a friend who also has that projector. When he first put it up, a few of us watched Ghost in the Shell on it, and all found it to be REALLY dark. The more he investigated, this is what he found:

"My 5040 accepts a max of like 10.2 Gbps for it's data bandwidth. This means, if a device can output 4K in HDR, then I am constrained to a certain FPS or Chroma compression level. So if I want 4K HDR 24fps (or 30 I think), then I can use a 4:2:0 Chroma. Most devices try to send 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, which cranks up the bandwidth.

So the Philip player I have correctly works with my projector as it recognizes the limit, and sends what is correct. To the best of my understanding, it's the only device that does see it correctly and send HDR. And it's beautiful! (but the philips is a tad slow, but tolerable)

Now, I just got an XBox One X, and it also can do 4K HDR, however, it's 60fps output, and it tries to send send 4:4:4 chroma by default. You can force it to try 4:2:2, but that's still too high of a chroma and fps for my 10.2Gbps. So, I had two choices. No HDR and 4K, or somehow force the signal different.

So, I force the signal with a little box called the HD Fury Linker. It dynamically changes the 4:4:4 chroma to 4:2:0 so my projector can accept the signal. Technically, it's losing some information, and occasionally I can see some color banding in HDR mode as a result, but it's very minimal and infrequent. The other downfall is it's a $180 converter and takes an extra 3 seconds every time it switches between HDR and normal. But again, this crap is all bleeding edge..."

 

[JStewart]

Hi Bhoot and welcome to the forum!

Have you tried bright cinema mode? You might also try HDR 1 as that is supposed to be brighter than HDR 2. A third thing to try would be hi lamp mode if you've not already.

Projectors tend to be HDR challenged and barely have enough light output to make it work under ideal circumstances. Ideal meaning a totally blacked out room and a screen size and throw distance that does not diminish the available light output to the point where HDR won't work well. You did get a screen with a 2.4 gain and that was good move and should help.

Since HDR 2 makes the image very dark I had to crank up the brightness

If by "crank up the brightness" you mean turned up the brightness control, I'm afraid that won't help. The brightness control actually sets the black level of the projector. With it set too high it will "wash out" the picture. You can find a good primer with some pictures of what i'm referring to here http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322 if you like.

 

[mechman]

First things first, check your firmware. Epson released firmware for these models at the end of last year and from what I recall it addresses these issues. My review model has the update and it automatically defaults to HDR 1, which is fine in my opinion. If you want it a tad bit brighter, you can change it to SDR and it will brighten up even more. Going to a lower HDR mode will only make it darker.

I send a 4:2:2 signal from a Sony UBP-X800 and it seems to handle that just fine. I know that I have tested a 4:4:4 signal in the past and it failed. I figured this was due to my 15 year old Monoprice HDMI cable though. Good to know that the pj can't handle it.

And definitely use Bright Cinema mode! I did some initial readings with this projector but have yet to delve that deeply into it.

 

[mechman]

Not sure how well my iPhone takes a picture but this is from the opening scene of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows part 2. While it’s not as bright as my OLED, it’s more than bright enough in my dark theater. And this is using the default settings.

 

[Bhoot]

Thanks a lot for the replies
Really happy to be on the forum

Current Setup is running a Raspberry Pi3 with RasPlex 1.8.2. That is not able to push 10bit and the same can be acknowledged by the message displayed.
The PS4 (non Pro) has a few HDR settings. I will try using a 4kHDR cable (if I don't have it attached already). I must say with the HDR mode (settings on PS4 and the PJ) the main menu looks wonky where as the movies running in plex don't suffer the same fate. Not sure why or what.
I have tried my best to answer all the posts here. I have snipped original quotes just to make the post appear smaller, hope you guys don't mind. I would like to thank all of you right off the bat for the help and kindness.

I haven't done a ton of HDR viewing yet with the 5040 that I have for review, but from what I have seen so far is it is rarely dark. Do you have the latest firmware?

Menu>Info>Version
Main ***WWV112
Video2 ***MV111

This is from a friend who also has that projector... ~snip~

Mine are all 1080p 10bit. I will try switching off the video processing on the Yammy A3070 and check the result again and post.

Hi Bhoot and welcome to the forum!

Have you tried bright cinema mode? ~snip~

Tried Hi lamp and Bright Cinema (I think if you select BC it automatically goes HI). Will try HDR 1
Please find the FW version in this post right at the start. And the aspect ratio is 2.4 (cinemascope). The screen is a silver 1.2 gain (not a lot I figure). I'll check the primer. I did use a few sample videos with HDR10 ourputs. Not sure if my PS4(non Pro) can process HDR properly. Planning on getting a Nvidia Shield for performance and HDR.

First things first, check your firmware. Epson ~snip~

FW posted earlier in this post. I'll try to play around with the settings of the AVR and see if I can restrict the color gamut as well.
I guessed since the videos I was playing were 1080p 10Bit, the cable saturation would not occur. I am using an audioquest cable, capable of 4:4:4 (atleast as per the box )

First things first, check your firmware. Epson ~snip~

Will retry with all the points given.
HDR1
Bright Cinema
Color Gamut to 4:2:0 (maybe once I get stuff right I will try 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 is impossible)
Thank you all for the help. Now I shall wait for my visit to the foreign land to get my hand on the Shield. Here it's about 350 USD for the 16 gb (~180USD in Best Buy).

 

[Bhoot]

So here are a few images of the HDR calibration disk on the HDR settings
Probably coz of the low light performance of the camera they appear a bit grainy, but I really find them surreal when watching them. HDR 1/BC/HI lamp

 

[Bhoot]

Now here is a comparison of HDR vs SDR of Red Sparrow
Each on pre defined settings HDR memory for HDR and SDR memory for SDR. I've tried to capture then at the same exact portion of the movie. 1st shot is SDR second HDR. You can probably note the greenish (cyan) tinge and artifacting on HDR. Like I said. For the reference video its perfect, but it doesn't equate to "content that I wanna WATCH" performance. These are all with upscaling on. I'll try that after the world cup match. The wife may kick me out of I don't give her the perfect image.
Thanks again all of you for your time.
PS just realized OnePlus 5T sucks at night photographs.
Hope they are clear enough

 

[Bhoot]

View attachment 8758

Not sure how well my iPhone takes a picture but this is from the opening scene of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows part 2. While it’s not as bright as my OLED, it’s more than bright enough in my dark theater. And this is using the default settings.

Is this default settings of the PJ with HDR 1/ Bright Cinema and 4k BT2020?
For SDR/BT709/Natural I can definitely get an image like yours. Its only HDR where I am struggling. Thanks for your reply.

 

[JStewart]

Mine are all 1080p 10bit. I will try switching off the video processing on the Yammy A3070 and check the result again and post.

I agree and would definitely set the A3070 video to bypass video processing. You shouldn't need it and it could unknowingly get in the way.

Not sure if my PS4(non Pro) can process HDR properly.

Just in case you've not come across this yet, for troubleshooting you can navigate to this screen found on page 117 of the projector manual. At least the US version of the manual anyway.

 

[mechman]

Is this default settings of the PJ with HDR 1/ Bright Cinema and 4k BT2020?
For SDR/BT709/Natural I can definitely get an image like yours. Its only HDR where I am struggling. Thanks for your reply.

Yes. Looking back through this thread, it seems to me that the issue is with your source or your source file. It appears the projector is operating as it should.

Correct anything that I may have missed:

• Source is a modified 4K Blu-ray streamed from a server to a Raspberry Pi
• HDR calibration disc looks fine
• Modified file that was never mastered in HDR does not look good

If that is correct it is probably the source file. I have had zero issues streaming anything in HDR to this projector. But I haven't done a lot of it either.

 

[Bhoot]

Yes. Looking back through this thread, ~snip~

Thanks for the reply. I have reached similar conclusions as you and will try my level best to answer this

• Source is a modified 4K Blu-ray streamed from a server to a Raspberry Pi
• HDR calibration disc looks fine
• Modified file that was never mastered in HDR does not look good

A1 Yes/No. Modified Bluray Yes Server Yes Rpi No. I know Rpi can't handle 4k or HDR. It's limited to 8bit 1080p. All photos taken are off PS4 with HDR switched to Auto. Furthermore I realized somehow my bluray were somehow picking up color space "TV" and not bt2020 that I would want. Maybe that's an issue?
A2 Yes. Same server, Same PS4
A3 Not sure about this. The file properties from VLC and plex are attached. It does show 10bit 4:2:0. Please refer to img attached.

I thank you for taking out time for me and revisiting this thread

 

[mechman]

I thank you for taking out time for me and revisiting this thread

Absolutely!

With regards to A3, the file that you are trying to play was from a 4K Blu-ray (from your first post). I assumed that it was not HDR mastered content. Is that the case?

 

[Todd Anderson]

Bhoot... make sure your projector is in the right gamma setting for 4K/HDR material. I stumbled around a bit with settings when I first integrated my JVC (4K/HDR) PJ... picture was incredibly dark and super frustrating. It wasn't apparently obvious that I had to get into the HDR settings and select the proper gamma setting. Actually, JVC tech support seemed oblivious to this tweak... but a JVC executive helped me out at CEDIA last year.

So, I'd check gamma for the PJ when it's in HDR.

 

[Bhoot]

Now here is a comparison of HDR vs SDR of Red Sparrow
Each on pre defined settings HDR memory for HDR and SDR memory for SDR. I've tried to capture then at the same exact portion of the movie. 1st shot is SDR second HDR. You can probably note the greenish (cyan) tinge and artifacting on HDR. Like I said. For the reference video its perfect, but it doesn't equate to "content that I wanna WATCH" performance. These are all with upscaling on. I'll try that after the world cup match. The wife may kick me out of I don't give her the perfect image.
Thanks again all of you for your time.
PS just realized OnePlus 5T sucks at night photographs.
Hope they are clear enough

Thanks for the reply. I have reached similar conclusions as you and will try my level best to answer this


A1 Yes/No. Modified Bluray Yes Server Yes Rpi No. I know Rpi can't handle 4k or HDR. It's limited to 8bit 1080p. All photos taken are off PS4 with HDR switched to Auto. Furthermore I realized somehow my bluray were somehow picking up color space "TV" and not bt2020 that I would want. Maybe that's an issue?
A2 Yes. Same server, Same PS4
A3 Not sure about this. The file properties from VLC and plex are attached. It does show 10bit 4:2:0. Please refer to img attached.



View attachment 8957 View attachment 8956

I thank you for taking out time for me and revisiting this thread

The 4 images from the first post (of Red Sparrow) are actually BluRays stored off site for easy cooling. The 2 pics of file properties are of the same file.
The funny part is that the HDR calibration disk is stored as a soft copy with my friend and it looks absolutely astounding. I am completely blown away, and he was the one who actually modified the Red Sparrow Blu Ray to sit in the server as a 10bit 1080p file.
The Harry Potter pic is from someone else, otherwise all of my pics are from online services/servers friends and I share, (mostly through plex) to avoid any one deleting stuff by mistake.
I don't have any HDR Bluray with me right now, mostly old non HDR 1080p movies, which run absolutely awesome on the projector but then I guess after a few days you wanna get the HDR experience, right??

Absolutely!

With regards to A3, the file that you are trying to play was from a 4K Blu-ray (from your first post). I assumed that it was not HDR mastered content. Is that the case?

I don't know how to clearly check HDR for sure. I read online, and there are currently no standards no ball parks. The movie is encoded as a 10bit HDR and playing through PS4 which is capable of pushing HDR (passthrough maybe).

Bhoot... make sure your projector is in the right gamma setting for 4K/HDR material. I stumbled around a bit with settings when I first integrated my JVC (4K/HDR) PJ... picture was incredibly dark and super frustrating. It wasn't apparently obvious that I had to get into the HDR settings and select the proper gamma setting. Actually, JVC tech support seemed oblivious to this tweak... but a JVC executive helped me out at CEDIA last year.

So, I'd check gamma for the PJ when it's in HDR.

I'll definitely play around with that setting. .


Another thing I wanted to ask, do HDR encoded files appear brighter on SDR?
I ask because all my displays are 1080p non HDR except the PJ. Hence my files are limited to 1080p (H264/x265). The 10bit was also an experiment only because I wanted to know HDR, and see the real difference, if any. I am still not convinced that I have experienced HDR and my friends and I are checking different formats. I'll keep you guys updated.

 

[Todd Anderson]

The gamma setting on JVC for HDR is called "HDR(ST.2084)" for 4K Blu-rays and "HDR(Hybrid Log)" for TV based HDR material.

Any 4K/HDR material played on a 1080p display will be down converted to HD SDR. The picture should be equal to or (potentially) slightly altered to what you'd see on Blu-ray.

Now, for the bad news. If you're looking to experience the absolutely stunning impact of HDR, you're not going to get the full experience with a projector (unless you have a $$ laser $$ projector). It all comes down to peak brightness / light output. The very best TVs that, like OLEDS, have infinite black levels or, like some of the better LCDs, have insane light output approaching or exceeding 1,000 Nits is where the money shot lies. They deliver the very best of wide color and HDR.

A 4K or faux-4K projector isn't going to get you all the way there. Even when you run your Epson on high lamp mode, you're not going to realize the detailed brightness/color benefits of HDR. What you will experience is significantly better detail in bright content (think a grey sky with clouds... HDR on the Epson will define those clouds much better, adding small details you wouldn't have previously seen) and better shadow detail... and obviously better wider color over Rec 709.

While solid 4K HDR projectors are capable of dazzling images... you won't be completely floored until you experience HDR on one of the industry's top TVs.

 

[mechman]

While playing your content hit menu on the pj remote, scroll down to info and select projector info. Take a pic and post that here. Should look like what JStewart's post #11.

 

[Bhoot]

So as you can see the PS4 is displaying and showing HDR AUTO.
The colors are still wonky on the normal PS4 home screen and the movie is still wonky.
Despite manually selecting BT2020 its limiting to hit depth 12 and BT709.
Skin tones are also appearing yellow to extra bright to the point of losing details.
The last two images are the same output in SDR / cinema eco brightness for comparison.
Yet to play around with the gamma. Just don't want to change too many settings and spoil what I'm currently at.
Maybe its the PS4 limitation and hence I'm planning on the Nvidia shield to have a capable device.

 

[mechman]

The issue is with the source file. It either not encoded with HDR or it was done so improperly. If you look at the Color Format line, it should say BT.2020 and HDR. So basically, you're trying to create something from nothing. Does that make sense?

 

[Bhoot]

The issue is with the source file. It either not encoded with HDR or it was done so improperly. If you look at the Color Format line, it should say BT.2020 and HDR. So basically, you're trying to create something from nothing. Does that make sense?

Thanks for the reply. I do kinda felt the same, but always best to ask. Thanks for all the help.
Just 1 last doubt could it be the PS4 also unable to push hdr properly? I ask because even the PS4 home screen shows bad colors.

 

[mechman]

It’s possible that it is the PS4. From the projector info screen it shows that it is only receiving a BT.709 SDR signal. And if that particular file is compressed as well, HDR will probably not look very good. Which is kind of what you’re experiencing.

 

[cpalenshus]

Now, I just got an XBox One X, and it also can do 4K HDR, however, it's 60fps output, and it tries to send send 4:4:4 chroma by default. You can force it to try 4:2:2, but that's still too high of a chroma and fps for my 10.2Gbps. So, I had two choices. No HDR and 4K, or somehow force the signal different.

So, I force the signal with a little box called the HD Fury Linker. It dynamically changes the 4:4:4 chroma to 4:2:0 so my projector can accept the signal. Technically, it's losing some information, and occasionally I can see some color banding in HDR mode as a result, but it's very minimal and infrequent. The other downfall is it's a $180 converter and takes an extra 3 seconds every time it switches between HDR and normal. But again, this crap is all bleeding edge..."

Did you ever get the Xbox One X to do HDR at 4:2:2 from streaming apps? It sounds like it should work. I'm curious which streaming apps it works with. Or have you just stayed with the Linker solution? Also, you've never had any problems getting HDR and 4k from UHD Blu-rays have you?

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

Did you ever get the Xbox One X to do HDR at 4:2:2 from streaming apps? It sounds like it should work. I'm curious which streaming apps it works with. Or have you just stayed with the Linker solution? Also, you've never had any problems getting HDR and 4k from UHD Blu-rays have you?

This was not my setup, it’s that of an acquaintance. I have a JVC, so I’m not ultra familiar with the situation.

Acquaintance has had to pack up his theater as well, so it’s not set up to test.