Marty Subs. GSG Audio.

[gatestick]

I am thinking of building 2 Full Marty subs. I was hoping to get others opinions on these or others that GSG offers. Link (GSG Audio). I was looking at the comparison table that they offer. My original plan was to use the Ultimax 18-22. This only rates as average quality sound output, but has the highest spl. I am thinking that a 4 ohm load is best for my amp. Crown XLi3500. Most of the other recommended drivers are 8 ohm. Looking at Parts Express I found the B&C TBW100-4. This is a 4 ohm version of 1 of the drivers they recommend going by the part # of the driver. Many of the specs are different between the 2. Another thought I had was to run 2 of the PA460 isobaric if possible. This will put the back of 1 driver outside of the box. I can wire it in parallel to get the 4 ohms. This is an expensive DIY project. I would like to keep the driver cost down, however I don't want to compromise the sound quality. I would appreciate any info on this or anything else related.

 

[Todd Anderson]

I know @Michael Scott built Marty subs... he might have some input

 

[Michael Scott]

the marty subs have changed a lot since I helped design and build them (ironically mine were the 3rd and 4th ever created only because the other member that was building them beat me by 3 days or so lol) ... back then we used the Ultimax 18's or the Stereo Integrity D2s or D4s (I have the SI D2's wired to 4 ohm loads).

the 3500 is ridiculous over kill for the Ultimax 18s...the 2500 would be fine with more than enough overhead. Just be sure you don't crank them too hard with the 3500 if you do and get a good dsp device. they're usually tuned between 17-18hz

I haven't tried the B&C, but it is a power hog... also the B&C models less low end bass, but a TON in the mid range (greater than 50 hz). So depending on how you like the sound, you'lld find the UM-18s probably will get more output down deep.... I mean, I almost consider the B&C's more midbass modules than subs.. you can get very good sound out of them and will CRUSH your midrange. but the UM-18s are still the staple for the Marty IMO

 

[Todd Anderson]

Oh wow... I didn't realize you were there for the design period. That's crazy! So you *almost* had the first two Marty subs on earth?

Based on what Mike is saying, @gatestick, I'd go for the UM-18s (I'm all about the deep bass!), but it looks like your output preferences are going to be your best guide.

 

[Michael Scott]

Oh wow... I didn't realize you were there for the design period. That's crazy! So you *almost* had the first two Marty subs on earth?

Based on what Mike is saying, @gatestick, I'd go for the UM-18s (I'm all about the deep bass!), but it looks like your output preferences are going to be your best guide.

lol, yeah I was around for years in the DIY section. LTD02 formulated the basic design for a member named Marty (hence the name) designed to be built with 2 sheets of MDF as simply as possible (the original designe was 24 wide, 26 high, 48 deep). I did some of the math and contributed to the port tune/design and bracing design to make it as plub and play as possible. 3 of us built the first six marty's in the same time period after we finished (marty, myself and one other guy I can't remember off the top of my head). we finished them all within a week of each other lol. I ran them on a PEAVEY IPR 3000 with a minidsp and those were MONSTERS. Back then the Ultimax 18 wasn't built, or wasn't AS desired, (the UXL 18 was the monster upgrade back then) over the Si D2's..but is still an excellent choice. IMO the Ultimax will do the OP bettter just looking at the modeling for the B^C... at least in my humble opinion.

I still have mine in my new home... I just haven't decided whether I'm going to sell them as is, or just pull the drivers and rebuild them into something smaller for a bedroom TV.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Remind me of the cabinet size? Several feet, correct?

 

[Michael Scott]

Original design was 24 wide 26 tall 48 deep

Basically 2x2x4

 

[Todd Anderson]

aka BIG!

 

[Michael Scott]

Lol they aren't small

 

[gatestick]

I spoke with Jason Lockyer at GSG audio Design. He first directed me to the FAQ page for discussion on the 4 ohm vs 8 ohm issue my brain was having. It has lots of good info with graphs that explain how there is little to no advantage to running a 4 ohm speaker in many cases. Sometimes it is better to have 8ohms, at least for the amp.

After our discussion, we concluded that with the goals I have in mind, the Full Marty 21 with the Lavoce SAN214.50 4 ohm is the way to go. This is a driver they are having made specifically for them (from what I understand). It is not listed on Parts Express as a 4 ohm, only an 8ohm.

This is a part of the email he sent me:

"As a 100% enthusiast owned business, we appreciate every single person who reaches out to us….so big thanks there.

As per our discussion today...

Some combinations are known to work very well & other less. Here's my spin on things & how I feel best to proceed

Mini Marty 18" is the most popular & versatile choice for driver selection working well with every 18" driver model selected (favoring the SAF/SAN, TBW, NSW & Dayton's RSS Reference series 460HO) The UM18-22 works well in the mini but really prefers the larger Full Marty. Cube 18

Mini 18

Full Marty 18" is the largest 18" we make & It works well with the high excursion Dayton UM18-22, 460HO & Eminence NSW (the pro drivers from Lavoce & Eminence are now not the best choice due to excursion limitations)

Some specialty enclosures we offer such as the BTS 18/21" series & 21" Dev build are worth a look. BTS

My opinion is that most 'who can' accommodate the Full 18" boxes are likely to also have space for the Cube/Full 21" (measurement’s in description) & the pricing to performance just often makes 'more sense'!

21" combinations with capable power will deliver an easy, comfortable, effortless Bass with no upper end distortion (where 18" begin to feel uncomfortable 21’s just begin). I say that with a grin because we already know there's a pair of 15" in the room (the difference here is night & day).

So the 21" packages that come to mind (primarily based on the available amplification) include the Lavoce SAN214 in the Cube/Full & with the 1350w x2 from the XLI will perform awesome & leaves very little performance on the table.

Here's a small demo clip of the LV 214 driver with max power behind it in a 21" Dev to give you some 'ears on' with the 21's (It's on Facebook so will need Pam's account)... Please use headphones. Dev/LV demo https://fb.watch/auF20IeNrs/"

 

[Michael Scott]

he is correct that the UM-22 18 incher shines in a FULL marty (even there full marty's are cut down from the original designs a bit).

the 21 inch LV 214 I have no knowledge about so I'll defer to his reccomendation, but seems like it should be pretty stinking powerful just by looking at it.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Wow. That thing looks like a total BEAST! @gatestick , I hope you start a build thread!

 

[gatestick]

I thought I would do a build thread from this thread. This project is double the original budget. That means I will need to save more money for about another year or so. I am hoping to find someone else in the Omaha, Lincoln Nebraska area that also wants a project from GSG. That way I can split shipping with them. I have never done a build thread. Pointers wanted. I would go back to the project of an 18 build, but I would just wonder what I am missing.

 

[JasonGSG]

If we’re doing a build thread I’d love to be included. Hello everyone.

 

[JasonGSG]

 

[Michael Scott]

you did a great job on the texturing.

 

[gatestick]

I believe that is one of their pre finished units. It does look good. I think I will do a wood veneer. Stain it black. And use a matte finish. I did that with my 15s. I had trouble with 1 of the panels of veneer having the glue fail. That is a lot of work and expense to redo.

 

[JasonGSG]

I believe that is one of their pre finished units. It does look good. I think I will do a wood veneer. Stain it black. And use a matte finish. I did that with my 15s. I had trouble with 1 of the panels of veneer having the glue fail. That is a lot of work and expense to redo.

How about a Vinyl wrap

 

[JasonGSG]

It's often difficult to express the relationship between driver & enclosure to people & how it relates to overall performance. Compounding the above with some of today's mainstream manufacturer's shady marketing practices & seemingly endless choices makes it impossible for just anyone to formulate an honest understanding of what they are spending their hard-earned on!

I think Michael hit the nail on the head on two points.

1.) 'back then we used!' (which dates us back to 1999/2000 on AVS)
Things have changed (for the better) over the last two decades.
2.) 'So depending on how you like the sound!'
Encouraging one to define the 'type' or 'range' of bass they prefer (which can be difficult) is an important reality.

This is where I tend to roll on & babble (it's a gift I swear).

'IMO, the quest for the 'lowest achievable' FR is excessively, obsessively & erroneously focused on!' which sounds 'off' no doubt when the topic is subwoofers. Isn't that what they're supposed to do?'

I'll skip failing 'harmonic limits', 'inductance' & other technical topics which are often not considered or passed over by clever marketing (a whole different conversation).

When the pursuit of 12.5hz ULF or lower (which represents less than 5% of available media content) detrimentally impacts the remaining 95% of your material then it's again my opinion 'that a better / more informed choice could have been made or of course, more money spent.

I'll try to elaborate & illustrate by referencing our line-up & inject some personal preferences while remembering the Op originally was shopping the behemoth Fulls & has available 1350w/4 or 1000w/8 available from the XLI3500

18" Marty Enclosures include the following...
Marty Cube 18" 24.0” wide, 23.5” deep, 28.0” tall, tuned @ 19 Hz
Mini Marty 18" 24.0” wide, 23.5” deep, 38.0” tall, tuned @ 18 Hz
Full Marty 18" 24.0” wide, 23.5” deep, 46.0” tall, tuned @ 17 Hz

Mini 18 - Cube 18 - Full 18

Driver selection... (shortlisted)
Lavoce SAF184.03 1500w RMS / 3000w peak, 4Ω, 96db
Dayton UM18-22 1000w RMS / 2000w peak, 4Ω & 88.6db
Dayton RSS460HO 900w RMS / 1800w peak, 4Ω & 93db
B&C 18TBW100 1500w RMS / 3000w peak, 4Ω & 96db

Michael - "I haven't tried the B&C, but it is a power hog... also the B&C models less low-end bass, but a TON in the mid-range (greater than 50 Hz".

The RMS power requirements are higher however that 12db advantage in sensitivity is a much larger influence. Both the LV SAF/SAN & B&C TBW when modeled in the Cube/Mini sacrifice very little on the low-end save that they do require a steep BW48db HPF vs The UM18-22 which can be a little more gradual if desired.
The 1350w/4 will be more than sufficient for all of these with gains from dual subs.

Marty Cube 18" driver pairing... Lavoce SAF, B&C TBW100 & RSS460Ho
Mini Marty 18"... Same as above with the UM18-22 added (a good +6db gain from Cube to Mini)
Full Marty 18" RSS460Ho, Um18-22 & SI HT18v3 (+9db up from the Cube & 3db up from the MIni. Which Is why I prefer the Mini or right to the 21")
Now for the direct comparison & why I prefer the 21" vs the Full 18"
Full Marty 21" 28.50” wide, 23.50” deep, 42.00” tall, tuned @ 17hz paired with the Lavoce SAN214.50, 1700w RMS / 3400w peak, 4Ω & 98.5db (It's 4" shorter & 4"wider) assuming it fits & a good 6db+ up from the Full 18"

This is the 21" Cube @ 32.50" tall

vs.
21" Full @ 42.00" tall

 

[JasonGSG]

I thought I would do a build thread from this thread. This project is double the original budget. That means I will need to save more money for about another year or so. I am hoping to find someone else in the Omaha, Lincoln Nebraska area that also wants a project from GSG. That way I can split shipping with them. I have never done a build thread. Pointers wanted. I would go back to the project of an 18 build, but I would just wonder what I am missing.

A pair of GSG Classic Mini's with UM18's in a veneer has become available via a client upgrade if you're interested.
The location is Charlotte NC
The price is TBD (it will be agreeable)
Shipping as always will be a curse