Recommendations for 5.1 upgrade

I've had my current 5.1 system for 15 years and it comprises the following:

- Pioneer KRP-500A 50" Kuro Plasma TV (still blows me away even though it is only HD!)
- Pioneer SC-LX82 AV Receiver
- Pioneer BDP-LX52 Blu-ray
- Monitor Audio Silver RX6 floor standing speakers - front left/right
- Monitor Audio RSW12 - sub
- Monitor Audio Radius 250 HD - front centre
- Monitor Audio Radius 180 HD - rear left/right surround

I'm now looking to upgrade and will probably go for the following (listed in the order I intend to replace as it won't all happen at the same time):

- Pioneer VSA-LX805 AV Receiver
- LG 77" G4 OLED Evo
- 4K UHD Blu-ray TBD. Possibly Panasonic DP-UB820
- New ceiling speakers to give 5.1.2 system
- New front centre speaker
- New rear left/right surround speakers

In terms of my existing equipment, I appreciate the Monitor Audio Radius centre and rear surround speakers are not as good as the Monitor Audio Silver speakers, but I partly purchased these due to their shape; the centre speaker is long and narrow, like a sound bar and therefore looks better above the TV. The rear surrounds were a good size to fit to the wall at the back of the room. I definitely want to replace the front centre speaker and possibly the rears, but would also like to improve the setup for Dolby Atmos (which my current receiver doesn't support), by installing some ceiling speakers.

The room in which the equipment is installed is 4.7 metres wide by 4.5 metres long (front to back) and the main seating is against the rear wall. Here are some photos, which should help visualise the layout:

From the perfect seating position at the back of the room (entrance door is to the right and out of sight in this photo):


From the front of the room (TV behind me) looking towards the back of the room and the "prime central seating position".


Showing the window side of the room and sub/stack position:


I would really appreciate some feedback on the following:
- Suggestion for front centre speaker, which will be installed above the 77" LG TV, similar to the existing layout, except the new TV is 27" larger, so will take up more space on the wall.
- Suggestion for ceiling speakers to give a good Dolby Atmos sound.
- Suggestion for rear surround speakers, if I decide to change these.
- Any thoughts on the upgrade?

Thanks in advance.

Your room looks very nice!
Are you unhappy with the sound your current speakers are producing? Or just looking to upgrade because you've got the itch for something new? With the 77" TV taking up more space, it would be nice to maintain the slim center channel that you currently have, as long as it is still doing a good job for you.
Also, with your surround speakers being mounted high near the ceiling, would you move them down when you install Atmos speakers to create more separation between the layers of sound?

Mike Schramm said:

Your room looks very nice!
Are you unhappy with the sound your current speakers are producing? Or just looking to upgrade because you've got the itch for something new? With the 77" TV taking up more space, it would be nice to maintain the slim center channel that you currently have, as long as it is still doing a good job for you.
Also, with your surround speakers being mounted high near the ceiling, would you move them down when you install Atmos speakers to create more separation between the layers of sound?

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Hi Mike,

Thanks for the compliment, it's not looking too shabby considering it was last decorated 15 years ago when I installed all my existing AV kit.

I've always been aware that the front centre and rear surround speakers were a compromise on price and more "style over function" and I'm now in a position where I can rectify this. The current system produces a good cinema sound, however, I can't help thinking it could be better! For some sources e.g. Netflix, it seems like the volume has to be turned up a lot and the clarify of sound from the centre speaker is not as clear as it could be, especially for movie scenes where there's a sound track and speaking. Now this could be down to my age as I've just turned 60, so I know my hearing isn't getting any better, and it just feels like there should be more "umph!" from the centre speaker.

There is of course the issue of the shape and size of the centre. I've looked at the current Monitor Audi Silver C250 7G, but as was the case 15 years ago, it is a large chunky speaker, more accustom to standing on a table than being fixed to a wall!

I was wondering about the Monitor Audio Apex A40 1G (I wanted to include a link but wasn't allowed to). I came across this by chance when googling and haven't yet had a chance to look in more detail.

I appreciate what you are saying about the position of the existing rear surround speakers, but due to the position of the door, it is very difficult to fit them any lower, as they would prevent the door fully opening. They are installed using home made brackets that angles them slightly down and inwards. Also, my wife objected to having them on floor stands!

I can't speak to the Monitor Audio speakers, I don't have any experience with how they sound. They certainly look sharp though!
How many Atmos speakers are you considering for the ceiling? The main thing that I would recommend is that you look for ones with aimable tweeters. In my experience I prefer them aimed at me instead of simply firing directly to the floor.

Mike Schramm said:

I can't speak to the Monitor Audio speakers, I don't have any experience with how they sound. They certainly look sharp though!
How many Atmos speakers are you considering for the ceiling? The main thing that I would recommend is that you look for ones with aimable tweeters. In my experience I prefer them aimed at me instead of simply firing directly to the floor.

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I'm considering only adding two ceiling speakers to my setup. My wife is already giving me grief about doing this as she doesn't want the ceiling to be punctured by speakers, so two is all I can get away with and they will have to blend in as much as possible, which will therefore require in-ceiling fitting with a flush white grill finish! I haven't looked at ceiling speakers yet, so not sure what the options will be, but a few years ago I did install some KEF stereo speakers into the bathroom ceiling as part of a bathroom refurbishment and they blend in well.

You have also got me thinking about the possibility of (eventually) replacing the rear surround speakers with something on floor stands. I'm not sure I can bring myself to discuss this possibility with my wife as it will involve removing the small nest of tables between the sofa and door to make some space on that side of the room!!!!

Unfortunately, as this is our living room, everything is a compromise between aesthetics and functionality, even though I've got away with a lot more than I expected to over the years!

Have you thought about ditching the center channel all together and running a phantom center using your left and right floor standing channels?

As for Atmos channels... are you planning on mounting them on or in the ceiling? Or are you thinking modules?

Todd Anderson said:

Have you thought about ditching the center channel all together and running a phantom center using your left and right floor standing channels?

As for Atmos channels... are you planning on mounting them on or in the ceiling? Or are you thinking modules?

Click to expand...

I've never heard of setting up a phantom centre. Is this what happens when a centre speaker isn't connected to the amp? I can't help thinking the system would be better with a dedicated centre speaker.

The new speakers will be mounted into the ceiling, so flush fitting in an attempt to keep my wife happy! Plus, on one side of the room is a large window with a curtain rail above it, making it difficult to fit a speaker to the wall, so it would have to fit onto the ceiling.

Yes, you essentially remove the center channel and your AVR uses your left and right speakers to create a phantom center. The benefits are (1) you eliminate some of the inherent acoustic issues that center channels introduce because of their horizontal driver placement and (2) you get the benefits of the full range of sound your tower speakers are capable of producing. So, in essence, you gain access to more robust sound.

But... and here's the but... the appearance of dialog, etc, existing in the middle of the sound stage is dependent on where you're sitting. If you primarily watch content by yourself and can always sit in the middle seating position, a phantom center will sound phenomenal. If you're off axis, then that centralized soundstage starts to fall apart.

That said, if your current center channel has a driver arrangement where two woofers are on either side of a tweeter, your offaxis seating is already experiencing compromised sound.

So, if phantom doesn't work in your case, do your best to find a center with (1) tweeters that match your left and right towers and (2)either have a point source driver design OR a design where the driver array is woofer - Midrange -tweeter - woofer. And by that, I mean, a woofer on the left, a tweeter mounted over top of a midrange driver, and a woofer on the right. That kind of design helps combat some of the inherent issues of a horizontal driver array.

How tall are your ceilings?

Todd Anderson said:

How tall are your ceilings?

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2.3 metres

Ok, at that height with in-ceilings, look for a speaker that allows you to aim the tweeter or tweeter and midrange. Sometimes they are fixed in an angled position, sometimes you can swivel them 10-15 degrees. But, I'd suggest avoiding a speaker that fires straight down.

You have a big room and a wide seating area and we're talking about 2 channels of Atmos, so I'd suggest placing them in the front 1/4 of your ceiling... if seating is even further back, you can move those atmos channels closer to the middle of the room. The idea is to get them in front of your main listening position. That's really step one... then, you'll need to work out the exact position. Ideally, they would be at 45-55 degree angle from your main listening position. So, sit in that spot, guestimate a 45-55 degree angle from your head to the ceiling in front of you, and that's where those two channels are going to be best placed. You'll want to have the angled tweeter or tweeter/midrange pointing toward that seating position.

Someone else might chime in with suggestions - but, based on my experience with Atmos and various configurations I've heard it in, that's going to give you the most cohesive sound experience.

Todd Anderson said:

Ok, at that height with in-ceilings, look for a speaker that allows you to aim the tweeter or tweeter and midrange. Sometimes they are fixed in an angled position, sometimes you can swivel them 10-15 degrees. But, I'd suggest avoiding a speaker that fires straight down.

You have a big room and a wide seating area and we're talking about 2 channels of Atmos, so I'd suggest placing them in the front 1/4 of your ceiling... if seating is even further back, you can move those atmos channels closer to the middle of the room. The idea is to get them in front of your main listening position. That's really step one... then, you'll need to work out the exact position. Ideally, they would be at 45-55 degree angle from your main listening position. So, sit in that spot, guestimate a 45-55 degree angle from your head to the ceiling in front of you, and that's where those two channels are going to be best placed. You'll want to have the angled tweeter or tweeter/midrange pointing toward that seating position.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice Todd. I had wondered where they should be positioned, but haven't yet done any research. I confess, the front 1/4 is further forward than I was expecting, whereas half way is more what I was expecting. When I get to that upgrade I'll do more research.

Just ordered a Pioneer VSA-LX805 AV Receiver as Peter Tyson have just dropped the price by £300 and the price was already very tempting! So, that's the first step in my upgrade.

Hoping the LG G4 OLED's will come down in price once LG start shipping the G5 model, so hanging on for a better deal on the TV. When I get the TV I also need to replace the front centre speaker, if I go ahead and do this, as both the TV and speaker will need to be fitted at the same time. The Kuro TV I have uses a Display Port cable, which is buried into the plasterboard wall, so I'll have to dig this out and replace it with a long HDMI cable, plus coaxial cable and ethernet cable. One advantage of the Kuro is that all the connections are in a separate unit on the stand, but this will change with the LG TV so need to ensure I run all the required cables before making the wall good and repainting!

I've been using the VSA-LX805 for a couple of days now, but I've come across a very frustrating issue.

What is the TV input on this amp? At certain times, the amp is switching to TV input and I have to manually switch back to the required input using the remote. Whenever it switches to TV input, the amp screen shows EXT.STEREO and the TV screen is blue with no picture.

This happens when starting to use any device (Sky box, Blu-ray DVD, Fire TV Stick) and after the required input has been selected, it switches to TV, then I have to switch it back.

It also happens when starting the BBC IPlayer app on the Fire TV Stick (no other apps, just this one) and seems to be related to the BBC IPlayer login screen being displayed.

I'm already getting a little tired of having to force the inputs back to what I want and it's only been 2 days!

I really hope someone can explain this TV input and why it has a mind of its own.

It sounds like it may be an HDMI-CEC problem. If that feature is turned on on your devices it could confuse the system and cause it to switch around like that. Maybe try turning it off on all your devices and see if that helps?

Mike Schramm said:

It sounds like it may be an HDMI-CEC problem. If that feature is turned on on your devices it could confuse the system and cause it to switch around like that. Maybe try turning it off on all your devices and see if that helps?

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Thanks Mike, I think CEC is the same as ARC/eARC? I was planning to update this forum as last night I changed the TV Kuro output from the MAIN (ARC/eARC) HDMI OUT connection to the SUB HDMI OUT connection and the issues described have now gone away! Looking at my old amp, this doesn't have ARC/eARC on either of the two HDMI outputs, so is probably why I never experienced these types of issues.

The TV is a Pioneer KURO and is essentially a monitor only, with no sound, so there's nothing to pass back from the TV to the amp, meaning ARC/eARC isn't required.

I would assume when I connect up a Smart TV, such as the LG G4 OLED I'm planning to get, this will need to be connected to the MAIN (ARC/eARC) HDMI OUT connector to ensure sound from the TV apps (Netflix etc) and from the digital aerial, are passed back to the amp. In this setup I won't require a Fire TV Stick, but would still have the Blu-ray DVD player connected to the amp and possibly the Sky box connected as well. I would hope these two connected devices wouldn't have issues with the input being switched to TV in this setup. I may have to plug my 42" LG C4 OLED into the VSA-LX805 to test this.

Yeah… something’s not right. I didn’t have any issues like that when I reviewed the 805.

I like Mike’s suggestion… also, make sure your forward is up to date on all of your devices.

CEC isn't quite the same as ARC/eARC. CEC is intended to be a way for all of your devices to communicate with each other via HDMI cables. In a perfect world when you turn on your bluray player, for example, it will "talk" to the AVR and TV and let them know what input they should be set on and everything will work flawlessly. However, it rarely seems to work like it should. Some devices work like they should while others don't switch at all or switch incorrectly.
ARC/eARC is the Audio Return Channel or Enhanced Audio Return Channel that lets an audio signal return from the TV to your sound system.

When I upgraded my TV a handful of years ago it would randomly turn off on me while I was watching a Blu-ray. Turns out the problem was the HDMI-CEC from my Apple TV would turn the TV off whenever the Apple TV went into standby, even though I was actively watching the TV on a different input. Turning off the HDMI-CEC on every device I have connected solved the issue.

Hmm. While Mike is spot on, I suspect you’re experiencing an HDMI compatibility issue with the Kuro. That Kuro has a 1.4 port, so technically speaking there shouldn’t be an issue - but we’re talking about a device that hasn’t been updated in 10+ years!

What the cause would be -,
I have no clue. But there’s only one way to find out - plug in that 42” C4! I suspect there won’t be an issue.

Maybe @PixelgenJack would have an idea as to what’s technically happening?

Todd Anderson said:

Hmm. While Mike is spot on, I suspect you’re experiencing an HDMI compatibility issue with the Kuro. That Kuro has a 1.4 port, so technically speaking there shouldn’t be an issue - but we’re talking about a device that hasn’t been updated in 10+ years!

What the cause would be -,
I have no clue. But there’s only one way to find out - plug in that 42” C4! I suspect there won’t be an issue.

Maybe @PixelgenJack would have an idea as to what’s technically happening?

Click to expand...

Hopefully you are correct. I just need to order a new HDMI 2.1 cable, as like the rest of my kit, my cables are 15 years old!

I need a 5m cable that will be routed through the wall and will replace the display port cable currently used to connect the kuro monitor to the kuro box. Any recommendations?

Having done some googling, as with anything AV/HiFi related, there are huge price differences. I've always believed that with digital cables it either works or it doesn't, so why pay a huge amount for something just because you can. However, I'm very aware that this cable will be embedded in my wall, possibly for another 10 to 15 years, so I don't want it failing over time!

Chord Company make what looks like a nice slim cable, which may be better for embedding in a wall behind the plasterboard, although my wall channel already exists and I've had a fairly beefy displayport cable in place, so it isn't too much of an issue, although I will also be running a network cable and a coaxial cable through the same channel, so these will take up space.

Chord Company Clearway HDMI AOC 2.1 £150 5m

A much cheaper alternative, with lots of reviews on Amazon is the following:

KabelDirekt 8K/4K HDMI 2.1 5m braided jacket

There are many cables like this available on Amazon, but they all seem to have a few bad reviews due to the cable not performing, or failing over time. I'm prepared to pay a little more to get a cable that has excellent build quality, since it would be very difficult to replace should issues occur. £150 is more than I was planning to spend, but is it worth the peace of mind?

I've also come across this cable, which is on offer and seems like a good deal, if not still rather expensive:

AuidoQuest Forest

After lots of procrastination this weekend, I've decided to go ahead and purchase the Chord Company Clearway HDMI 5m cable. It's a lot of money for a HDMI cable, however, as I need a 5m cable (16 foot) and it will be buried in the wall, for upto 15 years (like the previous Displayport cable used by the Kuro TV), I want to be 100% sure it will be good. The shortest version of this Chord cable is 3m and they can be as long as 20m, so 5m is relatively short for this AOC type cable.

Maybe I've been persuaded by the sales literature, but unlike other cables in my system, this one will be difficult to replace should it fail.