Recommendations for 5.1 upgrade

[milleniumaire]

I've had my current 5.1 system for 15 years and it comprises the following:

- Pioneer KRP-500A 50" Kuro Plasma TV (still blows me away even though it is only HD!)
- Pioneer SC-LX82 AV Receiver
- Pioneer BDP-LX52 Blu-ray
- Monitor Audio Silver RX6 floor standing speakers - front left/right
- Monitor Audio RSW12 - sub
- Monitor Audio Radius 250 HD - front centre
- Monitor Audio Radius 180 HD - rear left/right surround

I'm now looking to upgrade and will probably go for the following (listed in the order I intend to replace as it won't all happen at the same time):

- Pioneer VSA-LX805 AV Receiver
- LG 77" G4 OLED Evo
- 4K UHD Blu-ray TBD. Possibly Panasonic DP-UB820
- New ceiling speakers to give 5.1.2 system
- New front centre speaker
- New rear left/right surround speakers

In terms of my existing equipment, I appreciate the Monitor Audio Radius centre and rear surround speakers are not as good as the Monitor Audio Silver speakers, but I partly purchased these due to their shape; the centre speaker is long and narrow, like a sound bar and therefore looks better above the TV. The rear surrounds were a good size to fit to the wall at the back of the room. I definitely want to replace the front centre speaker and possibly the rears, but would also like to improve the setup for Dolby Atmos (which my current receiver doesn't support), by installing some ceiling speakers.

The room in which the equipment is installed is 4.7 metres wide by 4.5 metres long (front to back) and the main seating is against the rear wall. Here are some photos, which should help visualise the layout:

From the perfect seating position at the back of the room (entrance door is to the right and out of sight in this photo):

From the front of the room (TV behind me) looking towards the back of the room and the "prime central seating position".

Showing the window side of the room and sub/stack position:

I would really appreciate some feedback on the following:
- Suggestion for front centre speaker, which will be installed above the 77" LG TV, similar to the existing layout, except the new TV is 27" larger, so will take up more space on the wall.
- Suggestion for ceiling speakers to give a good Dolby Atmos sound.
- Suggestion for rear surround speakers, if I decide to change these.
- Any thoughts on the upgrade?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mike Schramm]

Your room looks very nice!
Are you unhappy with the sound your current speakers are producing? Or just looking to upgrade because you've got the itch for something new? With the 77" TV taking up more space, it would be nice to maintain the slim center channel that you currently have, as long as it is still doing a good job for you.
Also, with your surround speakers being mounted high near the ceiling, would you move them down when you install Atmos speakers to create more separation between the layers of sound?

 

[milleniumaire]

Your room looks very nice!
Are you unhappy with the sound your current speakers are producing? Or just looking to upgrade because you've got the itch for something new? With the 77" TV taking up more space, it would be nice to maintain the slim center channel that you currently have, as long as it is still doing a good job for you.
Also, with your surround speakers being mounted high near the ceiling, would you move them down when you install Atmos speakers to create more separation between the layers of sound?

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the compliment, it's not looking too shabby considering it was last decorated 15 years ago when I installed all my existing AV kit.

I've always been aware that the front centre and rear surround speakers were a compromise on price and more "style over function" and I'm now in a position where I can rectify this. The current system produces a good cinema sound, however, I can't help thinking it could be better! For some sources e.g. Netflix, it seems like the volume has to be turned up a lot and the clarify of sound from the centre speaker is not as clear as it could be, especially for movie scenes where there's a sound track and speaking. Now this could be down to my age as I've just turned 60, so I know my hearing isn't getting any better, and it just feels like there should be more "umph!" from the centre speaker.

There is of course the issue of the shape and size of the centre. I've looked at the current Monitor Audi Silver C250 7G, but as was the case 15 years ago, it is a large chunky speaker, more accustom to standing on a table than being fixed to a wall!

I was wondering about the Monitor Audio Apex A40 1G (I wanted to include a link but wasn't allowed to). I came across this by chance when googling and haven't yet had a chance to look in more detail.

I appreciate what you are saying about the position of the existing rear surround speakers, but due to the position of the door, it is very difficult to fit them any lower, as they would prevent the door fully opening. They are installed using home made brackets that angles them slightly down and inwards. Also, my wife objected to having them on floor stands!

 

[Mike Schramm]

I can't speak to the Monitor Audio speakers, I don't have any experience with how they sound. They certainly look sharp though!
How many Atmos speakers are you considering for the ceiling? The main thing that I would recommend is that you look for ones with aimable tweeters. In my experience I prefer them aimed at me instead of simply firing directly to the floor.

 

[milleniumaire]

I can't speak to the Monitor Audio speakers, I don't have any experience with how they sound. They certainly look sharp though!
How many Atmos speakers are you considering for the ceiling? The main thing that I would recommend is that you look for ones with aimable tweeters. In my experience I prefer them aimed at me instead of simply firing directly to the floor.

I'm considering only adding two ceiling speakers to my setup. My wife is already giving me grief about doing this as she doesn't want the ceiling to be punctured by speakers, so two is all I can get away with and they will have to blend in as much as possible, which will therefore require in-ceiling fitting with a flush white grill finish! I haven't looked at ceiling speakers yet, so not sure what the options will be, but a few years ago I did install some KEF stereo speakers into the bathroom ceiling as part of a bathroom refurbishment and they blend in well.

You have also got me thinking about the possibility of (eventually) replacing the rear surround speakers with something on floor stands. I'm not sure I can bring myself to discuss this possibility with my wife as it will involve removing the small nest of tables between the sofa and door to make some space on that side of the room!!!!

Unfortunately, as this is our living room, everything is a compromise between aesthetics and functionality, even though I've got away with a lot more than I expected to over the years!

 

[Todd Anderson]

Have you thought about ditching the center channel all together and running a phantom center using your left and right floor standing channels?

As for Atmos channels... are you planning on mounting them on or in the ceiling? Or are you thinking modules?

 

[milleniumaire]

Have you thought about ditching the center channel all together and running a phantom center using your left and right floor standing channels?

As for Atmos channels... are you planning on mounting them on or in the ceiling? Or are you thinking modules?

I've never heard of setting up a phantom centre. Is this what happens when a centre speaker isn't connected to the amp? I can't help thinking the system would be better with a dedicated centre speaker.

The new speakers will be mounted into the ceiling, so flush fitting in an attempt to keep my wife happy! Plus, on one side of the room is a large window with a curtain rail above it, making it difficult to fit a speaker to the wall, so it would have to fit onto the ceiling.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Yes, you essentially remove the center channel and your AVR uses your left and right speakers to create a phantom center. The benefits are (1) you eliminate some of the inherent acoustic issues that center channels introduce because of their horizontal driver placement and (2) you get the benefits of the full range of sound your tower speakers are capable of producing. So, in essence, you gain access to more robust sound.

But... and here's the but... the appearance of dialog, etc, existing in the middle of the sound stage is dependent on where you're sitting. If you primarily watch content by yourself and can always sit in the middle seating position, a phantom center will sound phenomenal. If you're off axis, then that centralized soundstage starts to fall apart.

That said, if your current center channel has a driver arrangement where two woofers are on either side of a tweeter, your offaxis seating is already experiencing compromised sound.

So, if phantom doesn't work in your case, do your best to find a center with (1) tweeters that match your left and right towers and (2)either have a point source driver design OR a design where the driver array is woofer - Midrange -tweeter - woofer. And by that, I mean, a woofer on the left, a tweeter mounted over top of a midrange driver, and a woofer on the right. That kind of design helps combat some of the inherent issues of a horizontal driver array.

 

[Todd Anderson]

How tall are your ceilings?

 

[milleniumaire]

How tall are your ceilings?

2.3 metres

 

[Todd Anderson]

Ok, at that height with in-ceilings, look for a speaker that allows you to aim the tweeter or tweeter and midrange. Sometimes they are fixed in an angled position, sometimes you can swivel them 10-15 degrees. But, I'd suggest avoiding a speaker that fires straight down.

You have a big room and a wide seating area and we're talking about 2 channels of Atmos, so I'd suggest placing them in the front 1/4 of your ceiling... if seating is even further back, you can move those atmos channels closer to the middle of the room. The idea is to get them in front of your main listening position. That's really step one... then, you'll need to work out the exact position. Ideally, they would be at 45-55 degree angle from your main listening position. So, sit in that spot, guestimate a 45-55 degree angle from your head to the ceiling in front of you, and that's where those two channels are going to be best placed. You'll want to have the angled tweeter or tweeter/midrange pointing toward that seating position.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Someone else might chime in with suggestions - but, based on my experience with Atmos and various configurations I've heard it in, that's going to give you the most cohesive sound experience.

 

[milleniumaire]

Ok, at that height with in-ceilings, look for a speaker that allows you to aim the tweeter or tweeter and midrange. Sometimes they are fixed in an angled position, sometimes you can swivel them 10-15 degrees. But, I'd suggest avoiding a speaker that fires straight down.

You have a big room and a wide seating area and we're talking about 2 channels of Atmos, so I'd suggest placing them in the front 1/4 of your ceiling... if seating is even further back, you can move those atmos channels closer to the middle of the room. The idea is to get them in front of your main listening position. That's really step one... then, you'll need to work out the exact position. Ideally, they would be at 45-55 degree angle from your main listening position. So, sit in that spot, guestimate a 45-55 degree angle from your head to the ceiling in front of you, and that's where those two channels are going to be best placed. You'll want to have the angled tweeter or tweeter/midrange pointing toward that seating position.

Thanks for the advice Todd. I had wondered where they should be positioned, but haven't yet done any research. I confess, the front 1/4 is further forward than I was expecting, whereas half way is more what I was expecting. When I get to that upgrade I'll do more research.

Just ordered a Pioneer VSA-LX805 AV Receiver as Peter Tyson have just dropped the price by £300 and the price was already very tempting! So, that's the first step in my upgrade.

Hoping the LG G4 OLED's will come down in price once LG start shipping the G5 model, so hanging on for a better deal on the TV. When I get the TV I also need to replace the front centre speaker, if I go ahead and do this, as both the TV and speaker will need to be fitted at the same time. The Kuro TV I have uses a Display Port cable, which is buried into the plasterboard wall, so I'll have to dig this out and replace it with a long HDMI cable, plus coaxial cable and ethernet cable. One advantage of the Kuro is that all the connections are in a separate unit on the stand, but this will change with the LG TV so need to ensure I run all the required cables before making the wall good and repainting!