Audiophile cables - brain science...or not?

ddude003 said:
Many Amplifier Designers, AV Equipment Manufactures and Electronic Bench Technician agree that cables matter... And they matter for various design reasons which can be measured... It is Price/Performance that hits a point of diminishing returns... It is up to the consumer to decide at what Price/Performance point value is returned...
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I honestly would like to see some direct proof of this claim though. It doesn’t matter in the sense that cables can be a problem. But everything I’ve seen has shown that even the cheapest cables are often a perfect conductor within the audioband. In fact I helped conduct a test of a bunch of cables and the best performing was the 99 cent molded rca that comes with a lot of equipment. The same was true or the digital and usb cables.

Now I broke that cable disconnecting it which is precisely why I don’t use such cables, but not because I think better cables conduct better. It’s a durability issue.

Even when people talk about joe cables can cause distortion, oscillation, or phase shifts, that’s true of exotic cables. The cheap run of the mill stuff doesn’t do that.

There are certainly little things that arise here or there around cables making a measurable difference but those problems and the solutions are cheap. In measuring distortion on the THX AAA based Benchmark amplifier, John Atkinson has measured higher levels of distortion than were correct due to the cable. The fix was a speakon connector based speaker wire that anyone can buy for quite cheap. The problem wasn’t the wire or geometry, it was the connector.

I found the same thing with an older exotic cable I had. It measured very poorly and I couldn’t figure out why. I cut the ends off and re-terminates them and the problem went away.

I like making cables, I like audio jewelry as much as anyone, and I have no ill-will towards people who buy and use high dollar cables, but I don’t believe we have objective evidence to suggest that cables can make an audible difference or that any measured differences are meaningfully in the audio range.
 
It seems that we are at cross purposes here... I have never said that price is an indicator of value or that price is an indicator of performance... Hence, I have never said that a more expensive cable is better than a less expensive cable, what ever those price points may be... I have however said that there are differences in cables and those differences can be measured... And in many cases can be heard in stereo system... A Variac, Signal Generator and Oscilloscope will show that power, interconnect and speaker cables all measure and perform differently... Even a decent DVOM will show voltage drop aka resistance in ohms...

Ask your self why do amplifier/speaker manufactures suggest various cable wire lengths verses wire gauge verses amplifier/speaker ohm connections... Think basic Ohm's Law...

A rough example would be to attach a right speaker to an amplifier with a 3 foot silver cable of 10 AWG and a left speaker to a 25 foot long copper lamp cord of 18 AWG... There are three reasons these cables would measure and sound different... A forth reason would also be the Amplifier's feedback design...
 
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Thanks for this paper! I'm really interested to see what findings were made in the study : )
 
Grayson Dere said:
Thanks for this paper! I'm really interested to see what findings were made in the study : )
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It's complete nonsense, like his other audiophile believer papers about CD/Redbook temporal inadequacy, etc. It's exactly what happens when very smart folks stray out of their lane. In this case way outside.
He's a Physicist (and a pretty good one in his specialized field). Not an Electro-acoustics, Information Theory, or Perceptual scientist.
The paper (like his others) shows that when you've drank the Koolaid and their is no real "peer" review, you can have rather egregious nonsense posted in engineering journals, giving the guise of technical/scientific validity.
As Kal hints at, the experimental design is awful. He tells the untrained listeners what he believes they will hear in cable differences, then "proves" that they did using long extended listening known to be rather faulty.
He manually flips a switch on the back of his old Class D Spectral amp between the balanced and unbalanced circuits, presuming these huge untested variables will not affect the "cables" test..a short vs long RCA and XLR! There is no explanation whatsoever about how this crucial "tell" is blinded. One might be able to tell which just by the sound the switch makes one way or other. How is the switcher communicated to with blinding?
He specifically states that the perceived differences cannot be FR related and thus must be temporal, citing 2 references for support.
But neither reference supports any such thing! One has zero listening tests whatsoever, just inane rambling.
The 2nd is the infamous Reiss "Meta Analysis" where a "Hi-Res" peddler - LandR, cherry picked various studies that supported his belief (sound familiar?) to mine just enough statistic to say, there's "something" there, but only when using "trained" listeners. He does not conclude anything whatsoever about temporal issues, as Kunchur alludes to. Worse, there is a massive, fatal flaw is the statistical analysis.
The highest weighted paper cited doesn't exist! It was a follow up paper by the MQA peddlers that completely (and surprisingly) failed AES review. I could go on for ever, but bottom line, this sort or audiophile believer nonsense is a stain on any scientific journal.
But its great fodder for believers and those who peddle such belief.

cheers
 
@AJ Soundfield Maybe you would care to share with us what wires you use in your speaker designs and why... Also, the speaker cables you suggest to your customers and why... You don't use or suggest 18AWG lamp cord do you?
 
ddude003 said:
@AJ Soundfield Maybe you would care to share with us what wires you use in your speaker designs and why.
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12-16 gauge copper wire, mostly parallel conductor. To transmit the signal.

ddude003 said:
Also, the speaker cables you suggest to your customers and why
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I generally don't, being acutely aware of this type of science. I'm all about happiness. If pressed, see above copper/gauge reference, though I'm fine with twisted and coax etc type arrangements, within RLC reason. Only exception would be if you live in Santa Carla, then I'd recommend silver to fend off the vampires.

ddude003 said:
You don't use or suggest 18AWG lamp cord do you?
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Nope.

cheers
 
It sounds like you have been reading a non peer reviewed paper about vampires... Vampires are not particularly affected by silver bullets... Traditionally what kills vampires is a wooden steak through the heart... The silver bullets are for Werewolves... Holy water, garlic and crosses might fend them off... Although you would need to do a double blind study to determine if there is any validity to such claims... And if you were on the Santa Carla diet you might want to test for Kuru... :meal:
 
Kal Rubinson said:
It's the cholesterol, I think.
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Pardon my misspelling Kal...
Now you are sounding like Dr. Jill... A wooden steak would have no cholesterol as cholesterol is only found in animals... A wooden steak would have a bunch of fiber however... And I am not talking about light pipes...
 
ddude003 said:
It sounds like you have been reading a non peer reviewed paper about vampires... Vampires are not particularly affected by silver bullets... Traditionally what kills vampires is a wooden steak through the heart
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I said "fend off", not "kill" https://www.gods-and-monsters.com/vampires-and-silver.html
Plus the price of audiophile silver cables is pretty frightening itself. Maybe Kunchurs next round of nonsense could be copper vs silver "speed" and unsurprisingly, "brightness" differences. Seems he's consumed quite a bit of the koolaid.

cheers
 
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