Build Thread : AE Td10M+Beyma TPL-200h

[DrDyna]

This looks really cool. I can't wait to see measurements.

You might consider the padding resistors as an l-pad to help present a more flat and stable load to the amplifier, as well as possibly to lower noise. What does an impedance chart for the Beyma look like, I'm not personally familiar with the driver. Personally any hiss bothers the heck out of me.

Once you have finished the IIR crossover could you create a phase correcting FIR filter? That should give you much of the same results, it will behave as a linear phase device, produce a square wave, but avoid the delay issues between drivers. I've done this with my own speakers as a test, where the crossovers were passive parts with minimal use of trap filters for response shaping, just proper integration, padding, and impedance flattening. Then final response shaping and phase was addressed in DSP. My speakers use three trap filters on the tweeter for response shaping, so to test, I removed those and added them in the processing, along with the phase correction. Minidsp has a link to the phase correction software I used.

Yep, the l-pad would be a pair of resistors, if I ended up doing it. So far in testing, the noise hasn't bothered me.

The problem with the FIR filters is the only device that can do it is the pwr-ice 250 (and I guess my pc if I switched over to pc based filters). If I could change the subwoofer crossover to FIR that would solve it, but the minidsp 10x10 won't do FIR. Rephase is the tool I was using.

It's connected right now with a chromecast that drives the 10x10 through toslink, and then the aes/ebu output goes to the plate amps..the 10x10 is essentially my pre-amp, so I would have to add the same amount of delay to the subwoofers that the pwr-ice plate amp dsp introduces in the next step running FIR, and then any additional delay any of the subs might need to time align otherwise, so the problem is running a subwoofer crossover IIR with FIR up top.

I could always introduce an FIR step between the chromecast and the 10x10 using one of their...I dunno, like a nanodigi or one of those. For now I think I'll just keep it IIR, and if I really get the itch to try FIR, I'll switch to a PC based system with a Motu 16 or something and run BruteFIR, and re-wire the plate amps to bypass the dsp module, but that's a wayyy maybe down the road thing.

 

[DrDyna]

I spose I can update this with the only measurement I've saved so far. It's just a very simple 1 meter dead-on axis so I'd have something to listen to until I can haul them outside.

Truth be told, these drivers will mate well in quite a broad range, so I'm confident that if I'm careful, I'll end up with decent polars with a smooth transition.

Come on spring time!

 

[tesseract]

On-axis is pretty impressive. Yes, c'mon Spring, we want polars!

 

[DrDyna]

On-axis is pretty impressive. Yes, c'mon Spring, we want polars!

It's coming for sure, recently it finally dawned on me after reading something that I can do half space measurements with the speaker flat on it's back, rather than hauled up into free space on top of my pergola, so I'm pretty anxious for the ground to be a little more like grass instead of soupy mud so I can do it properly.

And now I'm trying to get my hands on a cross spectrum calibrated umik to add to the collection, but they're a little cumbersome to get, apparently I have to "luck into" their system accepting the order on step 2, so I have to go in there every day and add it to cart and then try to check out with it to see if there's one available for sale.

 

[tesseract]

I have a factory UMIK-1 (one of the first) that I've been told I could send to Herb. Maybe you could buy one and send it in?

 

[DrDyna]

I have a factory UMIK-1 (one of the first) that I've been told I could send to Herb. Maybe you could buy one and send it in?

I may have to try that. I wonder if they'd do OmniMic...I'm pretty sure they can't do the Clio, at least I can't find a cal file, I think it's baked in.

 

[neo_2017]

Great thread and project @DrDyna, congratulations.

Would you mind sharing the XO details that you are using in the miniDSP?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DrDyna]

Great thread and project @DrDyna, congratulations.

Would you mind sharing the XO details that you are using in the miniDSP?

Thanks in advance.

Sure, right now the crossover point is 1150 @LR8 electrical, and I have a broad dip in the tweeter to pull it flat, but it's only been measured nearfield on axis, just to have a listenable crossover. It hasn't been tuned, or really voiced at all. It'll probably change.

Here in the next couple of days actually, finally, I'm going to cart one outside and measure it. I actually just made a new spinorama that can accommodate their weight.

We shall see, but for right now, it looks like in the picture.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I may have to try that. I wonder if they'd do OmniMic...I'm pretty sure they can't do the Clio, at least I can't find a cal file, I think it's baked in.

An Omnimic is identical to the Umm-6 so no reason why they can't.

Check on the Clio, if you have a Clio mic its a lot better than the Omnimic or Umik, so I would see if they could calibrate that for you, or are you talking about software?

Professional mics don't use correction files because the mics used are supposed to be used on their correct axis and have a flat response already. The cheaper mics we all tend to use require a correction file because they are not flat. I think all mics could benefit from a correction file, but its not all that common. The best lab grade mics now seem to sometimes come with a calibration file at an added cost and pros sometimes have them made up. Having said that, the last few labs I was in used B&K or ACO Pacific mics and specifically told me no correction file is used or needed.

The CLIO mic, as I understand, does not need a correction file, or at least they don't think so. It's response is pretty flat.

Omnimic DOES need a correction file and the one included is the same quality as the one included with the UMM-6, which is to say, not the most accurate. My theory is that they use the electrostatic method and I wonder if that approach isn't as accurate as thought?

 

[chrapladm]

So how are things going with this build?

I ask because I just ordered my TPL200. Wont be here for a few months but I was super excited to see I am finally starting one of my projects.

I wish miniDSP still made their 3 channel plate amps. That would be perfect for my future TPL build.

 

[DrDyna]

So how are things going with this build?

I ask because I just ordered my TPL200. Wont be here for a few months but I was super excited to see I am finally starting one of my projects.

I wish miniDSP still made their 3 channel plate amps. That would be perfect for my future TPL build.

Well, I only last weekend finished building all the speakers I had planned, so I've been being lazy about getting everything measured and in place. I've been through almost 20 sheets of material in the last couple months, so I've been pretty pooped.

Plus, I've got this nagging urge to turn the whole thing modular now that the midbass modules are done.

 

[chrapladm]

Modular would be nice. How much bigger is this going to be if you go that route?

No rush on the measurements. It will be a long time before I get my own. And I just want to lay low and enjoy the sound of my projects before back to testing them.

How many speakers did you build in the end?

 

[DrDyna]

Modular would be nice. How much bigger is this going to be if you go that route?

No rush on the measurements. It will be a long time before I get my own. And I just want to lay low and enjoy the sound of my projects before back to testing them.

How many speakers did you build in the end?

The part that makes up the main might actually shrink if I did that, but I think they're going to stay as-is for now. It's really all about the weather, and having a weekend with decent weather, plus having the energy.

As for the other ones, I just finished the other two Sue horns, so there's 4 of those now, and I built 4 double 18" mbms with pa460 in them.

 

[chrapladm]

What are the Sue horns?

I apologize if you have explained this before I just dont remember at this time. It reminded me of LTD's single fold design and also BTH's. But I know its not the Sub Maximus so I figured best to ask.

I think you might be lacking midbass n your setup with dual 18 cabinets for midbass. I wish I had that much room. I think the best I will be able to manage will just be a pair of 18's for subs. Maybe FI HT's or Funk's.

 

[DrDyna]

What are the Sue horns?

I apologize if you have explained this before I just dont remember at this time. It reminded me of LTD's single fold design and also BTH's. But I know its not the Sub Maximus so I figured best to ask.

I think you might be lacking midbass n your setup with dual 18 cabinets for midbass. I wish I had that much room. I think the best I will be able to manage will just be a pair of 18's for subs. Maybe FI HT's or Funk's.

The Sue horn came from a fellow on avs who was looking for a single fold / easy build tapped horn for the 21ds115. It popped up when I started looking for single fold designs for 21" woofers, so I snagged it and went with it. I changed it slightly from the first iteration, turned the mouth to the front, and used my 21sw152 instead of the 21ds115.

Response is simulation vs nearfield measurement indoors.

 

[chrapladm]

Makes sense now. I had talked with cattskinner about his horn before it game to fruition. Then he made the thread in which I see you asked about the changes.I thought it sounded familiar.

What are those MBM's tuned to? That many pro 18's should definitely have LOT of chest stomp.I am jealous

 

[DrDyna]

Makes sense now. I had talked with cattskinner about his horn before it game to fruition. Then he made the thread in which I see you asked about the changes.I thought it sounded familiar.

What are those MBM's tuned to? That many pro 18's should definitely have LOT of chest stomp.I am jealous

I'm running the 18s sealed right now, when I modeled 2 of them in 250L the response shape in a sealed cabinet almost perfectly tracked the range that I was going to use them in, and the added efficiency where I would have tuned them..probably 45 or 50 hz or so..would be largely wasted with 8 of them anyway. As it is, I can't even get 2 lights on the inuke running them before signal levels going through the dsp are starting to get non-linear anyway.

I'd love to be able to afford changing out the pa460s for TD 18H+, as I'm quickly discovering a love / love relationship with AE, but that's gonna have to wait until I win the lotto, unless AE is reading this and feels like granting wishes

Chest stompy for sure though, and they don't have to work very hard to do it. The infrastructure of the room starts complaining about 10 db before any of the subs do.

 

[Adhoc]

I’m following this one with interest, so I hope your mud turns into grass and you keep up the work.

I was choosing between AE’s TD10M and TD12M myself together with Beymas TPL 150H as LCR. Cabinets with elements installed were finished a loooong time ago. Then the woman in the house got ill and extremly sensitive to noise, -so the project halted to a stop . The TD12M’s seem to play well up to quite high frequencies so I will try to have a crossover at around 1540 Hz to match the horizontal beamwidth of 80° of the TPL 150H. Time and later measurement will show if it works out well.

(AE’s TD18 H+ are really good by the way, have 4 of them as front subs and 4 of AE’s SPB 15 behind the sofa.)

 

[DrDyna]

Little more fussing today, first attempt at merging near-field woofer with some basic polar information at 1m.

Still indoors, so I cut the 1 meter measurement around 450, or else I get..almost creepily perfectly pronounced floor, ceiling and rear wall bounce.

And then, just for fun, I laid the listening position response of the subs and the midbass modules along side it. This is probably a good representation of what's heard, as I cross to them at 200 hz anyway.

0,15,30,45,60.

Oh, and..I've decided to call it Velocity.

 

[chrapladm]

Well Velocity is looking good so far.

 

[chrapladm]

After seeing your finished pictures I am wanting to know more. So with your picture of your Sue horns you showed your finished 2way here with I believe 18's above and below. Were those the PA460's?

Just got told to start ordering parts for my ideal system. So I will be building more TPL's myself and a single 10m to try out. My single TPL 200 I will be picking up this week. So look forward to building your combo here although I will be using the TPL 150 in the final build.

 

[DrDyna]

Yeah, they're PA460, I'm hoping for 2019 to change to TD 18H+ for the woofers that are part of the main. I've also been experimenting with adding more and more baffle, and it seems to get better every time I do, so here eventually, I'm going to start building a baffle wall of sorts, but step one is probably going to be just two full sheets as baffles.

The crossover is honestly pretty simple, I would show it (and then I uploaded a pic anyway lol), but I try to keep room effect adjustments separate from the crossover settings, I.E using the input EQ to do room stuff, but right now it's a bit of a mess.

The crossover point is 1150 hz, at least that's where I liked it best, there's a pretty big droopy dip in the tweeter's response to pull it down from waveguide effects, and then the woofer has very little work, just a tad of baffle step to get them down to 300 hz, and then handed off to the PA460s, and I get pretty aggressive with the EQ / LT on those because there's so many of them.

Velocity by itself will go down to around 30 or 35 hz with the vents unplugged, so it's a decent little two way alone.

 

[Werner Weber]

Hello all
May I join your enlighted circle?
My Name is Werner, living in Switzerland and just finished my new living-room speakers (The crossover took me some months).
Crossover is at 1k, some corrections were needed but were very easy with the power ice 125.

Here the measurement (1 meter) in the living-room:

I delayed the woofer for about 2.4 cm, helps to keep distorsion low at the crossover and inverted the phase of the Beyma. The result of that you can see when using REW.

And here the look of the beasts:

The front is amercan walnut, the rest 21mm birch plywood. The whole inside is damped with 1 cm felt, the beyma is coated with tar (it smelled some days ...) but it does not ring anymore. The vent is on the top. That allows to fill the sump with lambwool as well as the surrounding of the beyma.

Thank you all for the inspiration I got here the latest months.
cheers
Werner

 

[Todd Anderson]

Welcome, @Werner Weber ! Great looking speaker you have there! I like how the baffle matches the stand

 

[tesseract]

Greetings, @Werner Weber! Did this thread help inspire your design? Looks nice, quality parts and execution, bet it sounds great!