Center Channels...

[Todd Anderson]

Interesting tread going back a couple of yrs. I am currently evaluating (spec-wise) different center speakers for dialog clarity, comparing to my current Elac C5.2. We are not particularly discriminating listeners (old ears) and don't listen far off-axis BUT dialog clarity is very important to us. As such, a good 3-way speaker might be technically the best answer for our needs - smaller dedicated mid-range, cross-over out of the vocal range, etc. Currently looking at Elac (several models), SVS, Emotiva, Ascend, etc. There are many other considerations; ie price, size, impedance, wattage but do you have any recommendations on a good size for the mid-range driver (they vary from 3" to >5") or the best frequency range (ie 500 to 2500 hz) to consider as "optimum" for cc vocals ? I know it will eventually come down an in-home evaluation but I would like to narrow the field down and I haven't seen much discussion devoted to these areas of measurements related to dialog. The center would drive my decision on the front L/R as well.

@Coy Ramsey, it's practically essential that you tweeter match your center channel... I'm assuming you're going to get new L/R channel speakers to match whatever you buy?

I can vouch for the SVS Ultra Center. Really nice speaker Good off-axis performance. Voices sound natural. Very happy with mine.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Interesting thoughts. If I had the space I would probably use the same tower for center as L/R main. I currently use the CSIA6 center. Maybe I will test a RTiA5 as a center....will have to see if it fits under the screen. Currently my L/R mains are RTiA9. The RTiA5 is aproximately 8.25” shorter. It contains the same two mid/woofer and tweeter as the CSIA6 just in a slightly different arrangement and vertical.

You'll notice a notable difference as you move off-axis.. The CSIA6 does suffer a bit because of its design. I think you'd find that a RTiA5 really improved your overall experience... at one point I had an entire RTiA5 arrangement in the front of my room. Sounded really nice!

 

[Jack]

This is an interesting idea Coy. Many less expensive center channel speakers have no or very little cabinet support or internal sound deadening material and will tend to sound chesty or less capable of producing such a large bit of the sound spectrum. I have a set of the Elac bookshelf speakers and they do pretty well actually although they do have a bit of cabinet noise. As they seem to know how to make very good sound even with some flaws in the speakers, your thoughts on an Elac center may be good indeed.

 

[Coy Ramsey]

@Coy Ramsey, it's practically essential that you tweeter match your center channel... I'm assuming you're going to get new L/R channel speakers to match whatever you buy?

I can vouch for the SVS Ultra Center. Really nice speaker Good off-axis performance. Voices sound natural. Very happy with mine.

Yes Todd, the center would determine what L/R that I would buy. I don't think that the rest of my system (Polk in-wall/in-ceiling) matter much as the audio content is less and we just aren't that discriminating in our hearing. I'm finding a wide range of variation in center channel designs and what appears to be little commonality in their approach. 2, 2.5, 3-way are the prevalent concepts but driver size and cross-overs vary quite a bit. Two of the most highly regarded include the SVS Ultra and the Ascend Horizon but I may have just scratched the surface. My first upgrade is going to be the sub. Today I'm using an old Def Tech 600 the output of which is surprising in my reflective and squarish room.

 

[Todd Anderson]

You're right, the rest of your system is certainly less crucial to match. Would it be ideal? Yes. But not as important as those front three channels. That's pretty much a no exception situation ;-).

Do you have a budget range in mind for your front three?

 

[Coy Ramsey]

You're right, the rest of your system is certainly less crucial to match. Would it be ideal? Yes. But not as important as those front three channels. That's pretty much a no exception situation ;-).

Do you have a budget range in mind for your front three?

I've allotted around $2500 for the L/C/R speakers so there is a lot of good competition to consider. Likely bookshelfs for L/R (sub supported) and a max height around 8" for the center (rules out the Ascend Horizon at 11"). Currently have Elac debut 5.2 across the front (cc is C5.2) so I guess that I'm starting pretty good at least as far as the budget end goes. Working with EQ on dialog and room décor to "soften" reflective surfaces, making small headway gains. Yamaha Aventage 660 avr (80 wpc) does not have pre-outs but I would consider an upgrade here if necessary but stay w/I Yamaha family as I use MusicCast for distributed audio. 80% movies/TV, 20% soft rock, not loud, not a big volume to fill (<2000ft3). Dialog is priority w/new setup and hope that good SQ comes along.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Okay... yes, you have a great budget. I'm a big fan of the SVS Ultras... and I think they'd pair fairly well with the Polk in-walls/ceilings that you have. Not speakers that I'd say are bright, but their higher frequencies are a little north of neutral.

I'd also suggest giving GoldenEar a serious look. Fantastic speakers

 

[phillihp23]

You'll notice a notable difference as you move off-axis.. The CSIA6 does suffer a bit because of its design. I think you'd find that a RTiA5 really improved your overall experience... at one point I had an entire RTiA5 arrangement in the front of my room. Sounded really nice!

Well I measured and the RTiA5 will not fit under the screen so that idea is out.

 

[Coy Ramsey]

This is an interesting idea Coy. Many less expensive center channel speakers have no or very little cabinet support or internal sound deadening material and will tend to sound chesty or less capable of producing such a large bit of the sound spectrum. I have a set of the Elac bookshelf speakers and they do pretty well actually although they do have a bit of cabinet noise. As they seem to know how to make very good sound even with some flaws in the speakers, your thoughts on an Elac center may be good indeed.

My hearing is far from good - hi-frequency loss, tinnitus, just plain old, etc. - and I am by no means an audiophile listener. E.g. we auditioned a couple of different speakers recently at Crutchfield and could barely discern a difference between a $500 pair of horn tweeter speakers and a $2000 pair of ribbon bookshelfs. I bought the Elac's (BS5.2 & CC5.2) because of decent reviews and a great sale price. I tried them out in my old home (beside a Def Tech ProCinema 600 system) and they were definitely a step-up in music over the DT but, I thought, a bit harsh with dialog especially when playing older source TV material. Good enuf for starting out in the new house but I was a bit concerned. In the new site I haven't found that same harshness in dialog to be an issue so something has changed … I have been spending more effort on EQ and maybe a bit smarter on general setup. I think that I have been able to improve dialog legibility but not enuf yet to drop the subtitles, which is my goal. I'll continue to work with the Elac's and meanwhile also investigate the technology around what might make a great cc. My first step is to upgrade the sub which might let me raise the handoff freq to the sub and take some of that task off the cc drivers (at least that's my idea).

 

[Todd Anderson]

Well I measured and the RTiA5 will not fit under the screen so that idea is out.

How much room do you need?

 

[phillihp23]

How much room do you need?

It's kinda comical. To make my story short.....My new projector vertical adjustment was 9" off from my old projector so I had to buy a drop extension. In regard to space under my screen I would need 9", to use a tower RTiA5 as a center channel. Essentially if I raised my screen 9" I would not need a drop extension for the projector and could fit a RTiA5 as a center. But ultimately I have front heights above my screen which does not allow me to raise the screen....no front wall space left. I'm at my rooms limit with speakers and gear....

 

[Todd Anderson]

Oh, for sure! I'm in the same boat. It's crazy how the math works out that way. What you need is an AT screen that covers those front heights... PROBLEM SOLVED! I assume you're loving the new set up?

 

[phillihp23]

@Todd Anderson Yes, I am loving it, still tweaking a few things. When I get a few more things worked out I am going to have Kris Deering from DeepDiveAV come and fine tune things for me.

 

[Coy Ramsey]

Okay... yes, you have a great budget. I'm a big fan of the SVS Ultras... and I think they'd pair fairly well with the Polk in-walls/ceilings that you have. Not speakers that I'd say are bright, but their higher frequencies are a little north of neutral.

I'd also suggest giving GoldenEar a serious look. Fantastic speakers

Thanks for your suggestions Todd. The Ultra cc would be my leading candidate if it didn't exceed my height restriction. I've looked at the GE line a few times as they typically get good reviews and I had a Def Tech system which uses a similar design scheme (same guy as I recall). I do get a bit frustrated when I research GE as the information seems heavy on marketing and light on technical specs. Likely just a personal quirk of mine I suppose. I'll give them another look thanks to your recommendation.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Yes, Sandy Gross was involved with Def Tech (and Polk). His GoldenEar speakers are amazing!

 

[Alkaloid]

Best if like the article from Todd, all the same and same height and depth as mains And surrounds too!




So if possible, match the center with the other 4 speakers at the seating level, and the image, and illusion is timbre matched so seamless. Mixed speakers can be used but it is very hard to match, even with parametric EQ. Also the tweeters at the same height where they beam.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Tell me a bit about that center speaker build!

 

[Alkaloid]

It's a long story LOL. ADS like many older speaker companies sold out and closed the factory. Being from New England, Boston area, and tight on budget, I started out with Advents. Then went for Boston Acoustics because I couldn't afford ADS. Years after inheriting a pair of L1230s, I got into surround sound with the Yamaha DSP1. Dolby surround matrixed rear channel. I had all mixed brands, ADS L1230s for mains, BA 400s for rear channel, and a Cambridge Soundworks center channel. I learned about Rich So from the original ADS factory moving with the new owner of the company and still having original parts, and doing repairs. I gathered up several models to mate with the 1230s like the similar 810s, and after a few models bumped into the L1290/2s. I then swapped the 1230s to the rear and put the L1290/2s as my mains after hearing a tiny improvement in the upper bass. Certain instruments were clearer and more music was evident on familiar recordings. I then gathered more pairs on Ebay, and Craigslist, and had rich rebuild bad drivers and crossovers. On his site he had this center channel, with the plans. I bought a plunge router, jig, and the stock. I made stencils for the odd shapes using an empty factory original cabinet while the parts were off to Rich's shop in Arizona, and built it. It seems to me that someone reverse engineered the dimensions T/S correct for the drivers and they also built a model never made by ADS. They built an L1590/3.
This model that never made it to production was like stacking except there was only one tweeter. Dappalito array was supposed to be an improvement so I would have loved to get this model.
But the article you posted the link to is so accurate. I experimented with different positions like above the display, below, and the sweet spot was same height as the 4 floorstanders and same distance from the back wall. With the lights out and a very nice source the lower layer speakers are seamless.
I am new to this forum and am a little crazier than most, I was going to mount 4 more 1290/2s on the ceiling for a 5.1.4 Atmos setup. I have since learned that the Auro placement on the wall behind the mains and rears is the best position for all immersive formats. DTS-X included.
Dolby put out a statement saying that the Auro angle works in their set up.
Told you it was a long story LOL.

 

[Coy Ramsey]

Wow, a 2+ yr old thread that's still alive ! Update on my situation in seeking improved dialogue. I did buy the SVS Ultra center channel speaker as Todd recommended. The Ultra is right at the max height that I could tolerate in my setup but it works. Dialogue improvement is there but the improvement in off-axis clarity is most notible which, I assume, is due to the 3-way SVS design. Happy with the move. Still using the Elac Debut 2.0 for L/R and they are the next targets for replacement with Ultras, probably bookshelfs. BTW, no problem with the Yam RX-A660 driving the Ultra center but it does have a bit lower impedance curve than the Elac center. Maybe a new Yamaha Aventage to go with the Ultra L/R ? Sure would like some of the new features such as multi-point YPAO and AI plus 150 watts should make for plenty of headroom.

 

[Alkaloid]

Wow, a 2+ yr old thread that's still alive ! Update on my situation in seeking improved dialogue. I did buy the SVS Ultra center channel speaker as Todd recommended. The Ultra is right at the max height that I could tolerate in my setup but it works. Dialogue improvement is there but the improvement in off-axis clarity is most notible which, I assume, is due to the 3-way SVS design. Happy with the move. Still using the Elac Debut 2.0 for L/R and they are the next targets for replacement with Ultras, probably bookshelfs. BTW, no problem with the Yam RX-A660 driving the Ultra center but it does have a bit lower impedance curve than the Elac center. Maybe a new Yamaha Aventage to go with the Ultra L/R ? Sure would like some of the new features such as multi-point YPAO and AI plus 150 watts should make for plenty of headroom.

The shape of the tweeter being a dome helps to disperse off axis sound. SVS makes excellent products.

 

[Todd Anderson]

It's a long story LOL. ADS like many older speaker companies sold out and closed the factory. Being from New England, Boston area, and tight on budget, I started out with Advents. Then went for Boston Acoustics because I couldn't afford ADS. Years after inheriting a pair of L1230s, I got into surround sound with the Yamaha DSP1. Dolby surround matrixed rear channel. I had all mixed brands, ADS L1230s for mains, BA 400s for rear channel, and a Cambridge Soundworks center channel. I learned about Rich So from the original ADS factory moving with the new owner of the company and still having original parts, and doing repairs. I gathered up several models to mate with the 1230s like the similar 810s, and after a few models bumped into the L1290/2s. I then swapped the 1230s to the rear and put the L1290/2s as my mains after hearing a tiny improvement in the upper bass. Certain instruments were clearer and more music was evident on familiar recordings. I then gathered more pairs on Ebay, and Craigslist, and had rich rebuild bad drivers and crossovers. On his site he had this center channel, with the plans. I bought a plunge router, jig, and the stock. I made stencils for the odd shapes using an empty factory original cabinet while the parts were off to Rich's shop in Arizona, and built it. It seems to me that someone reverse engineered the dimensions T/S correct for the drivers and they also built a model never made by ADS. They built an L1590/3.
This model that never made it to production was like stacking except there was only one tweeter. Dappalito array was supposed to be an improvement so I would have loved to get this model.
But the article you posted the link to is so accurate. I experimented with different positions like above the display, below, and the sweet spot was same height as the 4 floorstanders and same distance from the back wall. With the lights out and a very nice source the lower layer speakers are seamless.
I am new to this forum and am a little crazier than most, I was going to mount 4 more 1290/2s on the ceiling for a 5.1.4 Atmos setup. I have since learned that the Auro placement on the wall behind the mains and rears is the best position for all immersive formats. DTS-X included.
Dolby put out a statement saying that the Auro angle works in their set up.
Told you it was a long story LOL.

First off, welcome to the forum! Awesome to have you here!

Pretty awesome that's your own handiwork. That makes you a fairly rare bird! Thanks for sharing!

You can definitely run with an Auro placement. I actually experimented with a universal Auro/Atmos height channel placement in this review: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/s...vr-tackle-auro-3d-an-exploratory-review.3737/

Ultimately, I found front and back wall heights worked, but you do lose a bit of seamless overhead transitions for Atmos content. That said, most Atmos mixes don't fixate on single object moving around your ceiling for long periods of time, so any gap is likely to go unnoticed while watching content that has audio coming from multi-channels at the same time.

You should enter our content for the Auro-3D demo discs (check the homepage )

 

[Alkaloid]

Thank you Todd for the warm welcome. Did you read the interview in Widescreen Review with Gary Reber and Wilfried Van Baelen?
Wilfried is what I would call a rare bird for real. His science behind his methods is solid and his extensive research proves in ceiling height speakers are too high up for perception by us mere mortals LOL. I know it is off topic but I want to post the PDFs of 1 and part 2. Files might be too big but I will try. He has been on YouTube with many thorough and informative group meetings. I hope I will be of value to this forum with useful information so ALL will benefit. And I feel lucky to have found this forum. It came from a link in an email from Auro.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Thank you Todd for the warm welcome. Did you read the interview in Widescreen Review with Gary Reber and Wilfried Van Baelen?
Wilfried is what I would call a rare bird for real. His science behind his methods is solid and his extensive research proves in ceiling height speakers are too high up for perception by us mere mortals LOL. I know it is off topic but I want to post the PDFs of 1 and part 2. Files might be too big but I will try. He has been on YouTube with many thorough and informative group meetings. I hope I will be of value to this forum with useful information so ALL will benefit. And I feel lucky to have found this forum. It came from a link in an email from Auro.

Yes, I’ve read them. Great pieces… I highly recommend that everyone read them. I’ve also spent a few hours of one-on-one time with him during interviews at two different CEDIAs… and we talked after our review went live here, on AV NIRVANA. He’s a wonderful personality, infectious! And yes, his understanding of the science behind audio is top shelf.

He has a passion for Auro that’s extraordinarily convincing. Once you have a decent understanding of what his technology is doing (vs other immersive codecs) it makes the differences in presentation much more obvious.

Thanks for bringing Gary’s piece into the fold - great stuff!