Have you heard a difference when bi-amping your speakers?

AudiocRaver

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No doubt a lot of what we end up doing is "just for fun". Bigger amp "just for fun," or because we like the idea involved. I like the theory and idea of bi-amping, and I can easily, so I do. It has not proven to sound better, yet. but it lets me push the volume level when desired without concern for amps reaching their limit. so it feels good and that is good enough for me.

Plus, as my system continues to improve, it might reach the point where a difference becomes audible.
 

Mark C Flick

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I can't imagine anyone hearing much difference bi-amped with just another exact version of yet another channel amp in the same chassis

That is where I hear the difference, sorta. I did this with my Denon 3805, played with it for a couple of weeks. Not saying I can hear a difference from actually bi-amping in this way but you can certainly boost or subtract gain to your tweeter/mids or woofers and you can definetly hear a difference when you do this.
 

dc2bluelight

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The question of audible change in bi-amping is pretty vague, and there won't be a clear answer unless a few variables are pinned down first.

There are two general kinds of bi-amping: passive and active. And then, there's Bi-Wire, which is not bi-amping at all, but the perception that it has some benefit persists.

Passive Bi-Amp: two full-bandwidth amps handle the same signal. The passive crossover network in the speaker is designed to permit separate full-bandwidth amps, one for the woofer, one for the tweeter. The crossover net remains in place.

Active Bi-Amp: The full-bandwidth line-level signal is passed through an active crossover, the speaker crossover is eliminated completely. Separate amps are used to drive woofer and tweeter directly.

Bi-Wire: As in Passive Bi-Amp, the speaker crossover remains in place, and is designed to permit separate full-bandwidth connections, one for the woofer, one for the tweeter. But in Bi-Wire, the same amp is used for both, but with separate wires to the low and high speaker connections, joined together at the amp.

Potential for audible change

Bi-Wiring: assuming a comparison between a single wire system with adequate wire gage for its length, with a bi-wire system also with adequate wire gage for its length, there is no possibility for an audible difference. Radically changing wire gages or the need for longer wires can introduce a change, but the differences in wire have to be very significant to the point of being inappropriate.

Passive Bi-Amp: Assuming the speaker's passive crossover performance is identical when the crossover is set for bi-amp vs single amp, the possibility for audible change relates only to the gains of the amplifiers used. If amp gains are identical there will be no audible change using passive bi-amping. Making amp gains unequal is essentially changing part of the crossover characteristic, and can make an audible difference.

Active Bi-Amp: When compared with a signal amp and passive crossover, this method has the most possibility for audible change. But, part of the implementation of demands the user essentially become a speaker designer. The passive crossover must be removed, and if desired, simulated with an active crossover before the amps. This is not a trivial task, but often trivialized in practice. However, if someone's going this far, they probably aren't interested in replicating the original crossover, and think they can do better. DSP active crossovers open possibilities for variation in just about everything, hence the chances for audible differences are many. Improvements over the original...well, that's another story altogether.

Outside of some professional high power applications, there is no clear benefit from bi-amping, apart from allowing the user to redesign the crossover using active methods. Bi-wiring doesn't provide any benefit, but can provide a new means of funds dissipation.
 

AudiocRaver

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Agree that definitions are important here, thanks for helping clarify them.

Passive Bi-Amp: two full-bandwidth amps handle the same signal. The passive crossover network in the speaker is designed to permit separate full-bandwidth amps, one for the woofer, one for the tweeter. The crossover net remains in place.

This example, if I am not mistaken, could provide a benefit in the following way:

Although the two amps are handling the same signal (voltage), the LF amp delivers very little HF current into the LF part of the crossover+woofer, and the HF amp delivers very little LF current into the HF part of the crossover+speaker. So each amp can now deliver mroe power into its respective speaker section and greater volume without overload is possible. How much more volume? And does this counts as a "different sound?" It depends on the definition of "different sound."
 

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I bi-amp my speakers... I got one amp for my left speaker and one for my right. I can guarantee you it sounds different if I take an amp out, so no doubt bi-amping sounds significantly better. :bigsmile:
 

dc2bluelight

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This example, if I am not mistaken, could provide a benefit in the following way:

Although the two amps are handling the same signal (voltage), the LF amp delivers very little HF current into the LF part of the crossover+woofer, and the HF amp delivers very little LF current into the HF part of the crossover+speaker. So each amp can now deliver mroe power into its respective speaker section and greater volume without overload is possible.
While sort of correct in that each amp would only "see" the load of the speaker it's connected to, the actual total load and power dissipation really doesn't change just by using separate amps and passive bi-amping.

To understand why you need to look at to things. First is the spectral power distribution in music. There are of course a lot of variations here, and the differences between something like a classical orchestral piece and a loudness-war processed contemporary piece are not small, they have some interesting similarities in where the bulk of the power is in the spectrum. And for both, it's below 1kHz, with the real heavy load at 300Hz and below. Above 2kHz the total energy is actually quite low, 35dB down for a loud orchestral piece, and 20+ dB down for brick-wall processed contemporary. For example, if you had a 100W amp peaking along nearly at clipping, 99 Watts of that would be below 1kHz, and 1W would be 2K and up. If it were an orchestral recording, the energy about 2kHz would only amount to a fraction of a watt.

The next thing to realize is what happens to the impedance vs frequency curve of a 2-way speaker. Typically, you find the lowest impedance above the woofer resonance point, but well below the crossover. Then you find either an upward slop with frequency, or an upward slope to a peak at some point around 2-5kHz, then it heads back down, but never goes even close to the nominal speaker impedance. That means that the high frequency impedance load on any amp is much lighter (higher Z, less current, less power) than the low end. That effect further reduces the actual power delivered to the HF driver, and makes the HF driver almost invisible to a good, low Z power amp.

Combine all of that, and you may begin to see that one amp driving a passive crossover isn't loaded by the high end, and doesn't deliver much power at all to the HF driver. So why would placing that load on a separate amp make any difference?

Ok, I think we could stretch find a few cases where it might. Those would be the rare, hard to drive capacitive HF drivers (electrostatics come to mind), or a situation where very high output impedance amps (like some tube amps) are used, making speaker loading a much bigger factor, and actually a total response modifier. But assuming low Z SS amps, properly sized cables, and "normal" drivers, the HF load is simply not a factor in the total.
How much more volume?
None, assuming identical amp gains.
And does this counts as a "different sound?" It depends on the definition of "different sound."
In my world, "different" means "audibly different", and that means it can be reliably discerned in an ABX test. And it turns out, that has to be an easily measurable difference. I therefore say that, given identical amp gains, there will be zero audible benefit in passive bi-amping.

Again, and to clarify, active bi-amping is very, very different. There are a thousand opportunities to change, not necessarily for the better, the audible sound quality by tweaking the active crossover, driver timing, crossover phase response, drive levels, and so on. In fact, the chances anyone could perfectly simulate the passive crossover in a speaker without a lot of accurate network analysis on the speaker itself are fairly few. So different, quite likely, better...thats a much more difficult question.
 

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Thanks for another good explanation.:T

Guess I should have mentioned, my speakers are MartinLogan electrostatics.
 

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The issue I see regarding the argument that bi-amping is better is that for a tweeter to reach ear bleeding volume levels require less than 10watts in most designs. My EVs tweeters can handle up to 25watts but thats rare. If your amps driving your speakers are that under powered that 10watts more would help then I suggest you get a bigger amp and forgo biamping.
 

AudiocRaver

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The issue I see regarding the argument that bi-amping is better is that for a tweeter to reach ear bleeding volume levels require less than 10watts in most designs. My EVs tweeters can handle up to 25watts but thats rare. If your amps driving your speakers are that under powered that 10watts more would help then I suggest you get a bigger amp and forgo biamping.

I agree!

Ok...but if you want the whole picture....

Which ones?
What amp?

MartinLogan Classic ESL 9, 380 Hz crossover, 4 ohm nominal Z, 0.8 ohm min Z at 20 kHz.

Each speaker is powered by a separate Crown XLS 1502 power amp.
 

dc2bluelight

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I agree!

MartinLogan Classic ESL 9, 380 Hz crossover, 4 ohm nominal Z, 0.8 ohm min Z at 20 kHz.

Each speaker is powered by a separate Crown XLS 1502 power amp.
Not seeing an issue here. Energy at 20kHz is so minimal, like -35dB for contemporary brick-wall, -55 or more, classical. And the Crowns would be just as happy driving a copper bar at that level, so yeah, no issue. Using nice big speaker wire, are you?
 

Matthew J Poes

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While sort of correct in that each amp would only "see" the load of the speaker it's connected to, the actual total load and power dissipation really doesn't change just by using separate amps and passive bi-amping.

To understand why you need to look at to things. First is the spectral power distribution in music. There are of course a lot of variations here, and the differences between something like a classical orchestral piece and a loudness-war processed contemporary piece are not small, they have some interesting similarities in where the bulk of the power is in the spectrum. And for both, it's below 1kHz, with the real heavy load at 300Hz and below. Above 2kHz the total energy is actually quite low, 35dB down for a loud orchestral piece, and 20+ dB down for brick-wall processed contemporary. For example, if you had a 100W amp peaking along nearly at clipping, 99 Watts of that would be below 1kHz, and 1W would be 2K and up. If it were an orchestral recording, the energy about 2kHz would only amount to a fraction of a watt.

The next thing to realize is what happens to the impedance vs frequency curve of a 2-way speaker. Typically, you find the lowest impedance above the woofer resonance point, but well below the crossover. Then you find either an upward slop with frequency, or an upward slope to a peak at some point around 2-5kHz, then it heads back down, but never goes even close to the nominal speaker impedance. That means that the high frequency impedance load on any amp is much lighter (higher Z, less current, less power) than the low end. That effect further reduces the actual power delivered to the HF driver, and makes the HF driver almost invisible to a good, low Z power amp.

Combine all of that, and you may begin to see that one amp driving a passive crossover isn't loaded by the high end, and doesn't deliver much power at all to the HF driver. So why would placing that load on a separate amp make any difference?

Ok, I think we could stretch find a few cases where it might. Those would be the rare, hard to drive capacitive HF drivers (electrostatics come to mind), or a situation where very high output impedance amps (like some tube amps) are used, making speaker loading a much bigger factor, and actually a total response modifier. But assuming low Z SS amps, properly sized cables, and "normal" drivers, the HF load is simply not a factor in the total.

This came up in another discussion and when we pulled spectral plots of various music found that the extreme you present frequently was not the case. Can you provide some examples and how you have drawn the conclusion of 99 watts below 1khz and less than 1 watt above. I'll see if I can pull back out the study I found and the numbers they had, but the balance was far more even. It wasn't split as you had though, as I recall, they split between bass and high frequencies and did so well below 1khz.

Your claim here would invalidate benefits of active bi-amping as well. I tend to agree that any benefit is minor at best, but this has certainly been addressed before. There are a number of studies investigating the benefits but I very much doubt any involved ABX sound quality testing.

When you split a passive speaker, the impedance of the driver heads up near infinite as you move out of the pass band of the transfer function response. This means that the amplifier will produce little to know power outside the bandwidth. That means the benefit remains as it would with an active bi-amplification of greater headroom. This is unrelated to the issue of musical spectral content as that is simply a practical problem with the claim in the first place. In other words, the benefit is there, its just not a necessary benefit.

You mention the tweeter impedance never falls to that of the woofer, but that is not correct. That would be dependent on the tweeter and crossover completely and in many speakers does. It can and sometimes even falls to below that of the woofers, depending on the nominal impedance of the drivers. For example in an MTM design where the woofers are 4 ohm and wired in series instead of parallel, but the tweeter is 4 ohm with little or no padding.

In fact I am reviewing a 4 ohm speaker now that has a 4 ohm tweeter. Over most of its pass band the impedance of the tweeter even with the padding resistor is only a little above that of the woofer. Around 6 ohms. The broad impedance peak in the woofer means that it operates at 4 ohms over only a very small range.

Here is a simulation:
Impedance Curve.PNG

Of course with impedance you also need to consider the phase angle. I have actual measurements of the system impedance and electrical phase of this speaker which I can try to post later. I actually believe that the high frequency section of this speaker is a more difficult load to deal with than is the low frequencies due to the low impedance and phase angle of the tweeter.
 

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You might want to take a closer look at Sonnie's Martin Logan Expression ESL 13A speakers... There looks to be a ESL stat panel connected to a crossover and two 300-watt Class-D amplifiers to drive the two 10 inch base speakers... This is where I am talking about things begin to blur...
 

AudiocRaver

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Not seeing an issue here. Energy at 20kHz is so minimal, like -35dB for contemporary brick-wall, -55 or more, classical. And the Crowns would be just as happy driving a copper bar at that level, so yeah, no issue. Using nice big speaker wire, are you?

Again, no arguement. I do not claimi to have heard a difference, just to like the idea, and that is enough for eme.

However, dynamic range is more like 10 dB for loud passages with much of what I lisen to, with lots of HF content, so I am seeing the numbers differently. I can still see the POSSIBILITY of it making a difference in alowing more power to be pushed to the MLs cleanly,, wih more gain of course, and for certainn tracks.
 

Matthew J Poes

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You might want to take a closer look at Sonnie's Martin Logan Expression ESL 13A speakers... There looks to be a ESL stat panel connected to a crossover and two 300-watt Class-D amplifiers to drive the two 10 inch base speakers... This is where I am talking about things begin to blur...


ML's are biamped by design, which I believe is what you are saying? I believe that ML has chosen this route because it allows them to tailor the LF response and make the speakers sound more impressive. These speakers basically have built in subwoofers in the sense that they have high excursion LF drivers and high power amps, along with DSP filtering. You could do this passively but it would be wasteful and difficult. You could design such a speaker with a passive crossover instead and apply bass DSP to get the same effect, but then the speakers couldn't be powered by a receiver. Everyone who buys an ML ESL 13A would have to buy a 500 watt per channel amplifier with DSP processing. This approach that they have chosen allows the company to provide a user friendly speaker with unusually good full range bass (as compared to passive speakers).

There is also something to be said for avoiding a high power high value inductor. A 10mh inductor that can handle 500+ watts with minimal resistance is both uncommon and very expensive. Building a 24db per octave crossover at 300hz would require so many expensive parts you would start to equal the cost of an amp and DSP.

I designed a speaker I had intended to build once using a similar concept. I included a pair of the Dayton Reference 12" drivers as the bass section and then using passive parts would crossover to a more standard 2-way speaker. The idea was a speaker with built in subwoofer level bass. The Crossover consisted of (if I recall correctly) a 10mh inductor, a 4mh inductor, a 120uf capacitor, and a 25mf capacitor. The inductors were $30 for the 10mh, $25 for the 4mh, $55 for the 120uf cap, $45 for the 25uf cap (using film caps), another $20 in resistors. Cheaper parts would have limited power handling, even this one limited power handling to about 300-400 watts and added .6 ohms of series resistance. For a little over $300 I could buy a Behringer DSP amplifier to power the low section and get superior results, so why not. I think that is ML's thinking too. I also never built this speaker due to the high crossover costs.
 

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For clarity, the ML Classic ESL 9, which I am using, is all passive, no built-in amplification.
 

ddude003

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What I am saying is that with hybrid speaker systems, new and old, there is a real blur in what you may call bi or more amping... And for the above mentioned Expression ESL 13A, I would consider it tri-amped as one external amp would drive the stat panel and the two internal amps drive the woofers... As to what one may or not hear as a difference with each system and speaker architecture, in any given room, is as always up to any given listeners ears...
 

Matthew J Poes

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For clarity, the ML Classic ESL 9, which I am using, is all passive, no built-in amplification.

I've probably missed a lot of this conversation, but if the ML you are using is passive, there might be something to be said for removing the passive low pass crossover and driving the woofer directly from an amplifier with DSP. If the woofer is robust enough, you could do exactly what ML has done on their powered LF sections. Might improve the bass quality. It also lets you power the panels with a decent amp while using a higher powered (but arguably lower quality) amp on the bass section, where the quality difference may not matter much.

I don't know enough about ML speakers to speak with much authority, but...I'll risk sounding like an idiot anyway.

Woofers are often very insensitive at low frequencies in these systems. Even a pro driver with a 100db at 1 watt/ 1 meter sensitivity may only be 80db's 1watt/1m at 50hz, and maybe even worse at 20hz. Trying to equalize that flat may be acceptable, but it may increase the demand on the amp a great deal. This is unrelated to the musical spectral content issue (for which there is certainly truth, there is more spectral density at higher level in the lowest frequencies). With more standard dynamic drivers, it is not uncommon to have a woofer whose sensitivity averages 85db's and gets paired with a tweeter whose sensitivity averages 90db's. Once you apply some EQ to that woofer to extend its low end response, you may be asking the amplifier to double, triple, even quadruple how much power it needs to send at the low end. With beefy woofers you often can get away with or even need really powerful amps, so it might be good to bi-amp just for that reason.
 

ddude003

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For clarity, the ML Classic ESL 9, which I am using, is all passive, no built-in amplification.

To be clear, I was talking about Sonnie's Expression ESL 13A as an example...
 

Matthew J Poes

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What I am saying is that with hybrid speaker systems, new and old, there is a real blur in what you may call bi or more amping... And for the above mentioned Expression ESL 13A, I would consider it tri-amped as one external amp would drive the stat panel and the two internal amps drive the woofers... As to what one may or not hear as a difference with each system and speaker architecture, in any given room, is as always up to any given listeners ears...

Well I guess I would just say that any 'blurring' comes from a misunderstanding then. These speakers are clearly multi-amped. In the case of a DSP optimized design of this nature, the improvement would be audible to anyone because of the massive differences in the linear response. As I said, you could recreate this same speaker using only passive parts, but the cost would be silly.
 

AudiocRaver

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It sounds like we have reached the point where we are basically in agreement that the difference, if any, will depend upon multiple factors, not straightforward at all, and is likely to be inaudible. It is, as you stated earlier, a complicated little can of worms. Your points about dynamic range and high frequency content are well taken.
 

Matthew J Poes

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It sounds like we have reached the point where we are basically in agreement that the difference, if any, will depend upon multiple factors, not straightforward at all, and is likely to be inaudible. It is, as you stated earlier, a complicated little can of worms. Your points about dynamic range and high frequency content are well taken.

Thanks Wayne. Your comments are level headed as usual. I do apologize if I came off at all argumentative. I did not mean to do so.
 

dc2bluelight

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This came up in another discussion and when we pulled spectral plots of various music found that the extreme you present frequently was not the case. Can you provide some examples and how you have drawn the conclusion of 99 watts below 1khz and less than 1 watt above. I'll see if I can pull back out the study I found and the numbers they had, but the balance was far more even. It wasn't split as you had though, as I recall, they split between bass and high frequencies and did so well below 1khz.
Here's some fresh spectral distribution plots I just did today. The Contemporary pieces were picked randomly from a list of the top 10 hit songs of 2017. I don't have access to the CDs, so you see the MP3 15kHz LPF on those, but the curve can easily be extrapolated to 20kHz. I've included one plot of an MP3 and AAC version of the same track to aid with extrapolation. The 3 Classical/Orchestral selections were less random, they're chosen because the are typically the last movement of symphonies, usually the loudest and most active in the HF range. This will not represent a global average, but shows what loud orchestral music at least looks like.
contemparary1.jpg

mp3_vs_aac_contemp.jpg

classical.jpg


It's VERY important that, if we're going to debate spectral density, we must also talk about how the analysis was done in specific. It's always possible to find a way to show radical differences. We have to use the same tools and understand why they're appropriate.

Your claim here would invalidate benefits of active bi-amping as well. I tend to agree that any benefit is minor at best, but this has certainly been addressed before. There are a number of studies investigating the benefits but I very much doubt any involved ABX sound quality testing.
Would you mind if I asked you to cite the studies? Audibility studies done without bias-controlled testing are not conclusive, though.
When you split a passive speaker, the impedance of the driver heads up near infinite as you move out of the pass band of the transfer function response. This means that the amplifier will produce little to know power outside the bandwidth. That means the benefit remains as it would with an active bi-amplification of greater headroom. This is unrelated to the issue of musical spectral content as that is simply a practical problem with the claim in the first place. In other words, the benefit is there, its just not a necessary benefit.
It's either an audible benefit or it's not. It would seem that if the impedance of the driver is even slightly high, the amplifier will be voltage-limited, not power limited. But that's the case regardless, so I don't think I see the benefit.
You mention the tweeter impedance never falls to that of the woofer, but that is not correct. That would be dependent on the tweeter and crossover completely and in many speakers does. It can and sometimes even falls to below that of the woofers, depending on the nominal impedance of the drivers. For example in an MTM design where the woofers are 4 ohm and wired in series instead of parallel, but the tweeter is 4 ohm with little or no padding.
Ok, so "never" was too strong a word. I think it makes sense to deal with typical here. Again, if you want to, it's not hard to find exceptions. I've looked at quite a few 2-way speaker impedance plots, typically the HF Z doesn't go lower than the woofer Z. But it really doesn't matter anyway given the energy and spectrum.
Of course with impedance you also need to consider the phase angle. I have actual measurements of the system impedance and electrical phase of this speaker which I can try to post later. I actually believe that the high frequency section of this speaker is a more difficult load to deal with than is the low frequencies due to the low impedance and phase angle of the tweeter.
Let's not post measurements of single speakers to invalidate a generalization. That's really not the point...at least, I hope not.

For example, in the spectral distribution graphs I post, I've shown several different samples within general genre/categories. Look for a trend, an average. If you single out one specific that seems to underscore your point, but ignore what generally happens, I'll probably just leave the discussion rather than counter with another specific that counters your point. Seems a bit silly, don't you think?

Lets also realize too that when it comes to amplifiers driving complex loads with complex signals, for purposes of discussion and comparison we can use an example, like my 100W vs 1W thing. But in reality those examples are not typical. We run at 20W, broad spectrum, and that's loud. The rest is about peaks and hifi demos. Our 100+ watt amps (or are we at 500W+?) have no issues at all at that level, and the spectral power above 2kHz is really so low as to be a complete non-issue.

BTW, if you have doubts about spectral power distribution, do a quick survey of tweeter power handling. It's all there in the specs, manufacturers know this, and build accordingly.
 

dc2bluelight

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Woofers are often very insensitive at low frequencies in these systems. Even a pro driver with a 100db at 1 watt/ 1 meter sensitivity may only be 80db's 1watt/1m at 50hz, and maybe even worse at 20hz. Trying to equalize that flat may be acceptable, but it may increase the demand on the amp a great deal. This is unrelated to the musical spectral content issue (for which there is certainly truth, there is more spectral density at higher level in the lowest frequencies).

With more standard dynamic drivers, it is not uncommon to have a woofer whose sensitivity averages 85db's and gets paired with a tweeter whose sensitivity averages 90db's. Once you apply some EQ to that woofer to extend its low end response, you may be asking the amplifier to double, triple, even quadruple how much power it needs to send at the low end. With beefy woofers you often can get away with or even need really powerful amps, so it might be good to bi-amp just for that reason.
Yes, equalizing the LF response does put greater somewhat demands on amplifiers, but don't assume that if we give a woofer 9dB of gain at 50Hz that suddenly we're going to need 800W out of our 100W amp to pull that off. That's not how it works, unless you stimulate with 0dBFS sine waves. It actually IS related to musical spectral content, totally. And about statistics...how often are you going to hit the center frequency of your boost EQ dead on, maximum gain, and at what level? This is why we can do some pretty radical EQ and not run out of power the instant we put in a gain EQ section. Couple that with typical listening power at or below 20W, and it works just fine, no 800W needed.

Remember, many auto-cal systems limit individual filter gain (that's where I got the 9dB figure from, BTW), and yet still work just fine without clipping anything.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Yes, equalizing the LF response does put greater somewhat demands on amplifiers, but don't assume that if we give a woofer 9dB of gain at 50Hz that suddenly we're going to need 800W out of our 100W amp to pull that off. That's not how it works, unless you stimulate with 0dBFS sine waves. It actually IS related to musical spectral content, totally. And about statistics...how often are you going to hit the center frequency of your boost EQ dead on, maximum gain, and at what level? This is why we can do some pretty radical EQ and not run out of power the instant we put in a gain EQ section. Couple that with typical listening power at or below 20W, and it works just fine, no 800W needed.

Remember, many auto-cal systems limit individual filter gain (that's where I got the 9dB figure from, BTW), and yet still work just fine without clipping anything.

All fair points.
 
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