Help Getting started with Audiolense

[jrobbins50]

I have a Marantz AV-7702 pre-pro that should be pretty similar to the Denon that Richardnew2511 is using. In my den system, however, I had been using a separate MCH DAC with HDMI input from my PC and taking the analog MCH output of the MCH DAC into the 7.1 analog input on the Marantz. To try and duplicate what Richardnew2511 is doing, I’ve plugged my PC’s HDMI output directly into my Marantz pre-pro.

To be honest, now I’m having a problem of a different sort. The Marantz internal crossovers function through all inputs other than the 7.1 analog input. As a result, when AL is doing a measurement sweep, the subwoofer is playing along with each speaker in the array, rather than only when the sub’s own channel is engaged. I can’t recall how to work around this. Does anyone recall what to do in this situation? I suspect that eventually, Richardnew2411 will run into the same problem using his Denon, once he gets past the sound card issue, so we all should have an answer foe this next step, anyway.

I’m wondering if it requires setting the AL speaker setup crossovers at a different place than the sub’s own crossover. I’m just not quite figuring it out, so who has the answer out there! Thanks. JCR

 

[jrobbins50]

Ok, I solved my own problem. I had LFE+Mains set in the Marantz pre-pro. When setting just to LFE, all bass is properly going to the sub for discrete measurement.

So, richardnew2511, I do have HDMI to the Marantz prepro working properly with MCH. It does require editing the cfg files to get the channels to route properly through Roon. That’s a whole other can of worms to take up after you get a good measurement.

Yours should work! JCR

 

[richardnew12511]

Richardnew2511, try a 5.1 setup in Windows. It seems you are only using 4 DAC channels anyway for a 2.2 configuration. And tick the use separate play and recording streams. I’m not sure that will make a difference; but I would try. I take it you never are able to test speaker connections because you are getting the error message before then? Are you running AL on the same PC as your HDMI output is coming from? I will tell you that I use my laptop for measuring and my PC just for the playback. Again, not sure this will make any difference. JCR

Thanks for the reply. I was just using 2.2 as just a test, but I've tried 5.1, 7.1, etc. The only thing that will actually let me measure is 2.0, though I get a different error afterwards which I think may be related to the UMIK-2(Dirac doesn't like that mic either). I've got another UMIK-1 on the way, as my old one was busted.

Are you running AL on the same PC as your HDMI output is coming from?

Yes, I'm running AL on the same system that I'm using as my HTPC(bought it pretty much solely to run Roon + Audiolense). I've tried on a separate Windows 10 machine, though, and had the same issue there. I think something is not quite right with ASIO4All, if I had to guess. It shows up as an audio device in Roon, but trying to use it either doesn't work or crashes the machine.

I've got a few more AVRs I can try, and another Windows machine(AL doesn't run on Mac, right?).

 

[richardnew12511]

So, richardnew2511, I do have HDMI to the Marantz prepro working properly with MCH. It does require editing the cfg files to get the channels to route properly through Roon.

Thanks for the help and trying to duplicate my issue. Can you expand on this point here a bit? I can do multichannel in Roon, but only using WASAPI.

 

[jrobbins50]

Maybe you don't have the MCH channel mapping issues that I do. Everytime I've run MCH measurements and created filters, Roon has the audio coming out of the wrong channels. Editing the cfg files that AL creates can re-route properly, if required. I never have the issue on 2 channel, only on MCH. JCR

 

[jrobbins50]

Thanks for the help and trying to duplicate my issue. Can you expand on this point here a bit? I can do multichannel in Roon, but only using WASAPI.

I will check, but I think that all my MCH Roon endpoints are through WASAPI and not ASIO, except for my Okto dac8pro. Is that what you are trying to solve? JCR

 

[richardnew12511]

I'm gonna mess with it a bunch tomorrow. I'll get there eventually.

It's gonna suck to unhook everything from the AVR, but that may be what I have to do to rule it out.

I don't think the issue is with Audiolense. I'm guessing it's either the AVR or ASIO4All.

 

[richardnew12511]

Ok, I thought I had figured something out, but still no luck. I thought maybe I had to change the surround mode of my processor from Auro3D to Multi-Channel in, but I still get the same "sound card not supported" error.

@jrobbins50 what AVR surround setting do you use?

Could it be that my AVR has too many channels? It's an 7.2.4 channel processor, and I think Audiolense only supports 7.2?

I'm thinking I'm gonna have to buy some separate device in order for audiolense to actually run the measurement and create the convolution file. Given that I'm already $1,000 in the hole for trying to use Audiolense, it makes sense to spend more money to actually be able to use it. What's the cheapest 7.2 processor that for sure works with a Windows 10 machine and Audiolense?

 

[Mitchco]

Hi Richard,

It seems your AVR should be able to do 7.1 from: https://www.audiotrends.com.au/denon-avrx4400h-a-closer-look

Digital Audio Connector HDMI	Audio Signal Type	Audio Signal Format
	2Ch Linear PCM	2ch, 32-192kHz, 16/20/24-bit
	Multichannel Linear PCM	8ch, 32-192kHz, 16/20/24-bit

"Direct Mode" provides playback of 2ch or Multichannel audio in its original form, without any surround or tone processing.

Kind regards,
Mitch

 

[jrobbins50]

Hi Richard,

It seems your AVR should be able to do 7.1 from: https://www.audiotrends.com.au/denon-avrx4400h-a-closer-look

Digital Audio Connector HDMI	Audio Signal Type	Audio Signal Format
	2Ch Linear PCM	2ch, 32-192kHz, 16/20/24-bit
	Multichannel Linear PCM	8ch, 32-192kHz, 16/20/24-bit

"Direct Mode" provides playback of 2ch or Multichannel audio in its original form, without any surround or tone processing.

Kind regards,
Mitch

Spot on, Mitch. The Direct mode for Marantz and Denon prepros is what you want if you aren’t using the analog MCH inputs from an outboard MCH DAC, but are instead using HDMI. (Kal Rubinson from Stereophile just confirmed the Direct mode choice for me this past week, as it happens.) I don’t do 7.2, but I’ve had HDMI MCH with AL filters working on Marantz AV-7702, AV-8802A and AV-7005 prepros with 5.1 and 5.2 arrangements and 5.1 with an Integra DTR-40.3 receiver. JCR

 

[jrobbins50]

Spot on, Mitch. The Direct mode for Marantz and Denon prepros is what you want if you aren’t using the analog MCH inputs from an outboard MCH DAC, but are instead using HDMI. (Kal Rubinson from Stereophile just confirmed the Direct mode choice for me this past week, as it happens.) I don’t do 7.2, but I’ve had HDMI MCH with AL filters working on Marantz AV-7702, AV-8802A and AV-7005 prepros with 5.1 and 5.2 arrangements and 5.1 with an Integra DTR-40.3 receiver. JCR

Maybe Bernt or someone else knows whether 9 channels (7.2) is the maximum that AL can handle, anyway. JCR

 

[juicehifi]

There's no set max in Audiolense. Probably some max in c# in how many channels the tables will allow, but that will be a very high number of channels.

 

[richardnew12511]

Hi Richard,

It seems your AVR should be able to do 7.1 from: https://www.audiotrends.com.au/denon-avrx4400h-a-closer-look

Digital Audio Connector HDMI	Audio Signal Type	Audio Signal Format
	2Ch Linear PCM	2ch, 32-192kHz, 16/20/24-bit
	Multichannel Linear PCM	8ch, 32-192kHz, 16/20/24-bit

"Direct Mode" provides playback of 2ch or Multichannel audio in its original form, without any surround or tone processing.

Kind regards,
Mitch

I never tried the Direct mode. I'll give that a try!

 

[richardnew12511]

There's no set max in Audiolense. Probably some max in c# in how many channels the tables will allow, but that will be a very high number of channels.

Ok, so after switching to "Pure Direct", I still experienced the same error.

However, after switching the playback device from "ASIO4All" to the "HDMI WASAPI output", I was able to start measuring with 1 sub(7.2 still gives me the previous "Sound Card not supported error"). However, checking the speaker connections, Rear right and Rear Left don't work, but all the other speakers work. The measurement completes, though it throws a new error(below).

Maybe this is because the rears were silent during measurement. I guess it doesn't really matter, since WASAPI doesn't support 2 subs.

Given that it works with WASAPI, it (to me) confirms that the problem is with ASIO4All, and not windows or the AVR, which is what I expected. Are there any good guides for setting up ASIO4All for a windows 10 machine? I couldn't find any that didn't involve setting it up in the context of some specific audio interface or daw. There is no "ASIO4ALL" program to configure anything, some I'm not even sure what I can do. There is a little control center icon that pops up when I open Roon, but otherwise nothing.

Anyone using Windows 10 with ASIO4Allv2 and Audiolense?

If so can you show the ASIO4All Control Panel settings(only shows up when you run Roon).

 

[juicehifi]

Yes it is most likely because the rears were silent.

 

[richardnew12511]

Further evidence that the problem is with ASIO4All. When using Roon, I normally use WASAPI, but I tried using ASIO4All today. It will play fine for 20 seconds or so, then start distorting horribly(louder than the music) for 3 or 4 seconds, and it will follow that sequence on repeat.

 

[richardnew12511]

Anyone able to use ASIO4All successfully on a windows machine?

I tried a third windows machine today, and same "soundcard not supported" error. I also tried my HTPC on a different(Yamaha) AVR.

 

[richardnew12511]

Also, I do have a few other output options available from the PC, though I would need to order some cords. Would USB C or USB A work?

 

[jrobbins50]

I don’t believe you should be using ASIO4all for playback. It was just for measurement. You can playback via HDMI (for me, using WASAPI via the Intel Display Audio) to your prepro and then import the Audiolense correction files into the Roon DSP convolution engine. That way, you’ll no longer see the ASIO4all control panel, as you will bypass it. See attached screenshot.

I don’t think your other outputs on your PC will work for MCH, but for USB running to an outboard MCH DAC before that DAC passes on the analog audio to your prepro. JCR

JCR

 

[juicehifi]

Anyone able to use ASIO4All successfully on a windows machine?

I tried a third windows machine today, and same "soundcard not supported" error. I also tried my HTPC on a different(Yamaha) AVR.

I am usin Asio4All on several windows machines.

 

[jrobbins50]

I am usin Asio4All on several windows machines.

But, Bernt, do any of your ASIO4all endpoints use HDMI? Only my outboard DACs with USB in let me do ASIO. JCR

 

[richardnew12511]

I'll go pickup another USB cable today to play around

I am usin Asio4All on several windows machines.

Are you using HDMI out?

Also, would you mind sharing a screenshot of your ASIO4All control panel. Given that I've tried 3 windows machines and 2 AVRs, I'm thinking the error has to do with the way I've installed and configured ASIO4All. That or HDMI(though I'm pretty sure I've configured this correctly). HDMI and the way I installed ASIO4All is the only thing constant between those systems(that I can think of).

 

[richardnew12511]

But, Bernt, do any of your ASIO4all endpoints use HDMI? Only my outboard DACs with USB in let me do ASIO. JCR

Interesting, how are you getting the sound and video from your PC to your Marantz? What does your chain look like?

My Denon AVR has 7 HDMI inputs, but the only usb input seems to be on the front, and is labeled "USB Music". Switching to that input on the AVR, and I don't see USB Device as an audio device in windows.

I can buy a new AVR or external DAC I suppose if I need to. My requirements really just are:

- Using my TV as my Windows display
- 11 channels
- Auro3D

Anyway I can get that, I'd be willing to pay if need be.

 

[juicehifi]

I am not using hdmi out.

 

[juicehifi]

Asio4All with Realtek. The Lynx isn't in operation here.