In your experience will room correction level the playing field between speakers?

[Mike Rivers]

"Room correction" is a bit of a misnomer. You correct a room using a sledgehammer. Using a room correction program or black box adjusts the frequency response and time delay of the signal feeding the speakers so that it will be correct at one point in the room. If you have a decent room to start with, you can get a reasonably large good listening area. In a bad room, you can't get very far from the sweet spot to get the benefit of your "corrections."

 

[Blueshound]

Hi. I never comment here, but thought I'd chime in briefly on this. I'm a (now mostly retired) industry guy who has been the lead consultant for numerous private theaters and listening rooms. I'm also a lifetime audio-fool, and have retained a keen interest in particular in 2 channel music reproduction.

If you indicated what the rest of your system is, I missed it, however the relative ability of the chain before the speakers is also a major factor in the degree of transparency of reproduction you can expect. The ultimate "spoiler", of course, is the environment into which the speakers have to work. There is simply no substitute for a bad room. You can make it somewhat less objectionable through room treatment, and to a lesser degree, modest EQ, however you have to be careful with over-correction. You are essentially dealing with two distinct characteristics of reproduction, linear e.g. frequency response as measured however you deem it possible or appropriate, and non-linear e.g time, impulse response, dynamic contrast including micro-contrast. Room treatments and / or EQ will deal primarily with linear characteristics, and may alter your perception of non-linear characteristics, but doesn't do much to address those, which tend to be more inherent in the equipment chain.

The fact that you seem to hear little difference between the two (rather different) speakers in question suggests that your listening room (and possibly to a lesser degree) your equipment chain overall is masking important qualitative differences. Many of the comments that have come before me are correct. Also note that leaning heavily on EQ may have a detrimental effect on non-linear qualities, e.g. phase, timing, etc.

Also, you absolutely cannot critically evaluate two pairs of such speakers in any reasonable space with both pairs present in the room, and certainly not side by side. It's a lot more effort to move speaker pairs in and out, but it makes a difference.

Brian

 

[highstream]

I share bvocal's view. I have a living room that's not well shaped for audio and tried the MiniDSP. I found it dulled the sound. After getting a local audio shop to help with speaker placement -- ATC SCM19A actives -- I've gradually added corner pieces (bass trap and tall book shelf). They made a noticeable difference. I've yet to deal with other reflections, but can hear them. Unlike your attic, which sounds dedicated, my concern is how to improve the audio quality while maintaining my living room instead of turning it into a studio.

 

[tesseract]

@bvocal,

The B&W 600 Series do not have the greatest off-axis response and I consider first reflection absorption mandatory.

Dipoles show nulls to the side walls. The disparate room radiation patterns (plus the rear output of the dipole) will sound radically different from each other, of course.

 

[Bebbetufs]

Also, you absolutely cannot critically evaluate two pairs of such speakers in any reasonable space with both pairs present in the room, and certainly not side by side. It's a lot more effort to move speaker pairs in and out, but it makes a difference.

Brian

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I find what you say interesting because my experience is the opposite. I was aware of the resonnanse issue, and I've seen the room response measurments from the fronts change when moving the sub around, so I know the sound from the playing speaker is affected by objects in its proximity.

After faffing about for a week with the focalst to get them their absolute best in my room with no other front speakers present, and without DRC and then carfully calibrating them (they sounded slightly better after calibration) I discovered I could hear absolutely no meaningful difference in sound with the B&Ws returned to the room and placed right next to them. I did this to justify keeping the Focals.

The thing is that after calibration I just can't hear a meaningful difference, so I reluctantly returned the Focals.

According to my ears (I'm practically deaf above 14K) so there may be differences I can't hear. The Focal sounded good. Good soundstage, but little depth. They sounded slightly better with DRC.
The B&Ws sounded muddy, but reasonable after toing them in a lot. Off axis respons must be quite bad like @tesseract pointed out. However. After calibration they sounded like the Focal. My DM604s2 sound better now then they ever did without DRC and better than my brand new LS50 (uncalibrated). Now I need to repeat the placement and calibration process with the LS50s and report back if they too end up sounding the same.

 

[Bebbetufs]

That would explain both why the speakers are difficult to distinguish once DIRAC'd and also why your soundstage is lacking.
cheers

In your experience, do speakers retain their "flavour" once calibrated, or is this an assumption on your part that they should? I'm asking to learn. Others find that DRC may dull the sound. Is this the reason it masks the traits of the speakers?

 

[tesseract]

@Bebbetufs,

There is very little content or energy above 12 kHz, so you are still able to enjoy 99% of the music.

I'd say above 4-6 kHz, B&W and Focal have more in common than below that. They both seem to have an upward tilt in that region.

 

[ddude003]

Forgive me for stating the obvious... To me the Focal Aria 926 and the B&W604s2's look like the same exact speaker and the specs are pretty close to the same... Prices are pretty close too... So, why would you expect them to sound different, especially if they have been automagically EQed to the same odd shaped room? It would be interesting to see what REW thinks of the room and those two sets of speakers before and after DRC...

Toss a pair of ESL's in there and hear the difference... Ducks and runs away...

 

[AJ Soundfield]

In your experience, do speakers retain their "flavour" once calibrated, or is this an assumption on your part that they should?

All my responses are based on science, I'm not an audiophile. In particular, AES paper 1871
If you don't have AES membership, here is a bit of a summary: https://www.inner-magazines.com/audiophilia/an-icon/
Basically, 2 speakers EQ'd for approximately the same response on axis, in an anechoic chamber, will be difficult to distinguish. Similar to the scenario being described by OP and what I responded to in quotes.

Others find that DRC may dull the sound. Is this the reason it masks the traits of the speakers?

I can't really speak for the anecdotes of others, nor do I use any form of so called DRC. It certainly can't be the DSP itself. More likely particular issues of over correction, or maybe a once bright speaker being tamed. That's mere speculation.
Dr Floyd Toole has devoted entire lectures on why "DRC" isn't such a great idea. But facts will never change beliefs and some folks like easy "solutions", so I suppose there is reason for its popularity.

cheers,

 

[Bebbetufs]

Forgive me for stating the obvious... To me the Focal Aria 926 and the B&W604s2's look like the same exact speaker and the specs are pretty close to the same... Prices are pretty close too... So, why would you expect them to sound different, especially if they have been automagically EQed to the same odd shaped room? It would be interesting to see what REW thinks of the room and those two sets of speakers before and after DRC...

Toss a pair of ESL's in there and hear the difference... Ducks and runs away...

I hear you. I don't know, I just wanted better sound and thought perhaps after 20 years of "development" the Focal were better. I also thought the same amount would get me more for the money today.

I Would love to try a pair of ESL, but I checked and they are too tall. They will not fit under the roof. Also, would they not be even more thrown off by the assymmetry between L and R front wall and corner?

 

[Bebbetufs]

@AJ Soundfield. Thank you for the information on the EQed speakers. DRC has definitely improved my system. Would you expect to be able to impove the sound beyond what DRC has given me in my living room, or would you consider the room too unsuitable?

I'm enjoying this thread, I want to learn more, though I admint I'm looking for easy, affordable, estetically acceptable solutions

 

[Bebbetufs]

Double post.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

@AJ Soundfield. DRC has definitely improved my system. Without rebuilding my living room, would you expect to be able to impove the sound beyond what DRC has given me? I'm definitely getting that book. I'm definitely looking for easy solutions

I believe you, given the speakers and room, DRC helped make things less worse. With other speakers the results may have been worse. You'll see when you get the book. In the meanwhile, it just occurred to me from your diagram "colour" spelling, you are on the other side of pond, so many solutions here may not exist there, or at least for reasonable cost. Unless you can find a pair of used Gradient Revolutions for the cost of the Focals et al. Outside that, maybe a small pair of Maggies...but once again, you're "there" not here, so availability of __ is in question.

 

[Bebbetufs]

You're right, I am in Europe! Thanks. I'll take a look online.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

You're right, I am in Europe! Thanks. I'll take a look online.

For sound, you want a speaker that operates something like this https://kimmosaunisto.net/KS-1804/KS-1804mk2.html
With that type of polar radiation pattern, i.e. highly directional near full bandwidth, with less sound power at LF as well.

They obviously, cannot "look" like the audiophile speakers you've bought so far.
Unless looks is priority #1. Then, good luck in that room ;-).

cheers

 

[Bebbetufs]

Cheers. I appreciate all the input. The bass is well controlled, in terms of ringing, here now due to all the dampening I have put in. I also have full control of the crossovers and have turned the subs almost off. You are spot on regarding bass. The lower corners of the room focus a lot of energy. The speaker is intrigueing, but it is not for my living room Sound is more important than looks, but my room is too small. A speaker like that will totally dominate it.

I'm currently listening to the LS50s. They have not been properly placed in the room, and they have not been calibrated. I need to buy stands and remove the floorstanders before I can fine tune them. So far I like them most of the time. They seem more fincky than the B&Ws when it comes to recordings. I find some albums sound "phase shifty", boxy and off on some tracks. I just dropped listening to Hunky Dory by Bowie. It seemed. Perhaps this is what audiophiles call revealing?

I agree with the premise that more directional is better. The reflections one the LF are angled into the floor and most don't reach my ears.. The right wall is vertical and throws RF reflections directly at me. This is more evident with the ls50s than the B&Ws. I belive the better controlled (leaner) mid range does not mask that a the mid bass booming off the wall as much as the B&Ws. I will try more/thicker dampening on the right, but I doubt I will be able to get low enough in frequenzy to make a big difference.

 

[sfdoddsy]

Just chanced upon this thread.

There is a difference between room correction and speaker correction.

what you saw with the B&Ws was speaker correction, ie fixing their basic faults.

Once this is done, the differences between a ‘good’ speaker and a bad one become much closer.

DEQX used to have an audio show trick where they EQed a cheap speaker to sound like a much more expensive one and asked people to pick them. Many could not.

Room EQ is beused after Speaker EQ to make a good sounding speaker work better.

for me, the first step should always be to have a good sounding speaker.

There is an old scientific theory that the better things get, the more similar they get.

So good speakers tend to sound like other good speakers.

And the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

 

[Cary B. Cornett]

Is DRC so powerfull it makes speakers below $30.000 virtually the same?

The past 15years I've wanted to upgrade my B&W604s2 speakers. I found them tireing to listen to and muddy with complex music enough to turn me off critical listening. My amp is a Denon AVR3805.

My room is very bad. It is an attic where the front wall, side wall and rear wall are all slanted at 47 degrees, while the right wall is vertical at the speaker position and open to the kitchen at the listening position. The bottom 60cm or 2' walls are vertical parallel walls This creates room modes in the bottom 60cm and very uneven reflections from there up. I have not upgraded my speakers as I expected my room to smother any speaker investment. Instead I built a lot of bass traps to control the bass and waited for DRC to work well.

I finally got a 2X4 MiniDSP with Dirac. My old B&W completely came to life, and I find myself looking for new albums and listening critically for the first time in years.

Due to this massive improvement I thought it might finally be time to upgrade the speakers. If my old ones could sound this good with DRC then perahps a much better set would improve soundstage and imaging even further. I found a nice pair of Focal Aria 926 that I'm currently auditioning. Without Dirac the difference was amazing. The Focal outperformed the B&Ws massively. My immediate reaction was that the Focals sounded as good without DRC as the old B&Ws sounded with it enabled.

But, here's the conunudrum: After properly calibrating both speakers they sund virtually the same. I am currently A/B-ing them and switching between their respective Dirac calibrations. I really struggle to hear the difference. If anything there are slight differneces in coloration. The soundstage is virtually identical. Not very deep, but that is my room. The B&Ws are possibly slightly less revealing, but the difference is so slight I at one stage had to verify wich pair I was listening to as I forgot which one I had plugged in.

My dream is to get a better and deeper soundstage, but I can't justify spending the money on the Focal. I will have to return them. The improvement before DRC is vast, but after calibratin it's too slight. Is DRC so powerfull it becomes almost pointless to play around with speakers in my price range? Below 30k, or can I expect to find improvement if I keep testing and calibrating speakers? As you all know it is time consuming to collect, calibrate and test speakers at home and return them, so if I can expect minimal improvement after calibration I may as well just keep what I've got and spend the money elsewhere, for example on an amplifier. What are your thoughts?

BTW. I'm sorry if this has been covered. I did a few searches and found nothing similar.

As a recording engineer and studio tech, I can tell you that some recording studios has flirted with and then rejected room correction before 1990. A room creates time domain problems that cannot be corrected in the frequency domain. I can also tell you that ALL rooms have room modes, regardless of shapes or angles. It's just that the room modes are much easier to calculate and predict in a rectangular room. The smaller a room gets, the more troublesome the room modes are, and only serious treatment does much to fix it. That said, SPEAKER correction is a reasonable thing to do, up to a point. So, the experience you describe is not a surprise to me. However, the less correction a speaker needs the better, and if the uncorrected Focals are much superior to the uncorrected B&Ws, I would say keep the Focals and sell the B&Ws. All processing has unintended artifacts, which you may eventually begin to notice, and if you have a choice, it is better not to need it.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Not sure how I missed this thread. We've done some 5 or 6 speaker evaluations with some good equipment over the years. Most posted over at HTS, but maybe one posted here. We haven't had the time to do more in a while. The last time we had maybe 7-8 speakers and nearly every one of them sounded better to us with Dirac Live enabled, however, they all sounded different, and everyone participating had different comments about each speaker... we may have all liked something different.

We found the sweet spot for imaging, sound stage and depth acuity first, then listened. Then we applied DL and listened. DL does a very good job in most cases, but now you also have Convolution using a few different methods to derive various filters that can actually go beyond what DL is able to do.

 

[DanDan]

With an imposed speaker correction, I would expect very similar tonality with competent speakers of a similar level of quality. But this would be very dependent on staying within a very small listening zone. Given the OP's highly treated room I would like to share a 'discovery' which some will probably doubt. I have taken this as far as Dirac Live main designer. He and other Studio friends confirm the phenomenon. DL often doesn't accept that the mic is centred for measure one. When creating the filter it adds a little time delay to the leading speaker. Some of us find this sounds pretty much disastrous. The delay needs to be turned off in a room without early reflections. Early versions of DL for Minidsp hardware did not have a bypass function. I hope this has been remedied. With a bypass, all is good in practice...... but what about the theory?

 

[tesseract]

Allow me to add, speakers with good off-axis response can benefit from side wall reflections. B&W doesn't have this, so I highly recommend first reflection point absorption.

Also, DSP can not help improve polars (off-axis) and it certainly does not help speakers below a certain price point sound the same.

 

[tesseract]

Here is one of the examples Sonnie spoke of. We spent a lot of time experimenting with various speakers/placement/Dirac settings.

AV NIRVANA Speaker Evaluation Event - Tower Speakers $1200 or Less (Results)

In the hallway between Sonnie's home and his home theater/listening room are standing 10, yes ten, count them TEN pairs of speakers to be evaluated over the next three days. This event will go down in the history books! (*Now 9 speakers after discovering the late arriving Klipsch speakers had a...

www.avnirvana.com