macOS convolver that works with Audiolense

[2234rew]

CPU is running at under 4% in that screenshot. I'm happy with Rosetta 2s performance across the board for all audio processing apps and activity in the past month I've had the Mini.

I created the 2x8 matrix as described above by 2234rew
First in Audacity preferences , under export choose the advanced options box.
When you select the multiple mono tracks in Audacity, you choose to export all files .
Choose the usual 32bit float options and wav and When it's time to export you will have a screen to create one wav file.

Import your individual .wav files into Audacity (so total of 8 files for me = 8 tracks in Audacity) then export it as .wav - the order of tracks top to bottom in Audacity will then correspond with the numbered audio channels in your OS.

Loop is what I called the input for Roon, Safari, Music and Chrome in Rogue Amoeba's Loopback app. Works much the same as Black Hole but is a paid app and is currently optimized for Apple Silicon as well.

Hi @DWPress

In Audacity, do you actually specify the "2 channels in" anywhere?

I can see how to create the number of outputs (I need 8 total) but not inputs in Audacity

I was previously using 2-channel matrix fine but things are a bit more complex now with 8 channels output - I only listen to 2-channel content.

So I need to create 2 channel input and 8 channel output.

cc @hulkss

For example:

Do I need to change the parts in pink below to to be Left or Right, depending if they are playing left speak or right speaker?

At the moment they are all in the middle of L and R as you can see below

I only listen to 2-channel music so I want to make sure the left channel of this music goes to correct DAC channels and same for right channel of the music content.

 

[2234rew]

And this part of the Audacity export is correct , in terms of correct mapping. I know it's correct but this same mapping works fine with HQPlayer and Roon.

So I'm just trying to understand where the 2-channel "input" comes into this matrix.

 

[hulkss]

I would use a diagonal matrix in the convolver to avoid confusion.
Your measurement order in Audiolense might be: LL, LM, LH, RL, RM, RH, Sub.

Then the convolver inputs would then be:
L, L, L, R, R, R, Sub

The convolver outputs would be:
LL, LM, LH, RL, RM, RH, Sub

The convolver channel mapping is 1:1 (no channel crossing).
The convolver can have more channels that are unused.

 

[2234rew]

I would use a diagonal matrix in the convolver to avoid confusion.
Your measurement order in Audiolense might be: LL, LM, LH, RL, RM, RH, Sub.

Then the convolver inputs would then be:
L, L, L, R, R, R, Sub

The convolver outputs would be:
LL, LM, LH, RL, RM, RH, Sub

The convolver channel mapping is 1:1 (no channel crossing).
The convolver can have more channels that are unused.

Thanks my original question was actually asking how to do: "Then the convolver inputs would then be:"

But I figured it out - can take the left and right from Blackhole and send multiple lefts and multiple rights to the correct "input" of the convolver.

This screenshot below looks so convoluted (LOL) but it works

I did left and right and sub channel tests on youtube and it works properly, despite looking like a hot mess

I'm fine with having to use Audiolense XO on Windows but I love being able to stick to macOS for everything, using Denon AVR as mutichannel pre, DAC and poweramp

All Youtube, Netflix , sport subscription, Apple Music (HD coming soon !) , Spotify (HiFi coming soon!) through room correction

So simple to use too. Just open Element and everything is there and setup

 

[2234rew]

Perhaps you can now try the Hang Loose Convolver from Accourate Sound, which has VST3 functionality. https://accuratesound.ca/ JCR

Didn't realise this was a thing!

Standalone operation is even better.

Hi @Mitchco for multichannel, what is the best file format to export from Audiolense XO, to use in Hang Loose ?

Is there a trial for macOS version? what are trial limitations?

And what about automatic sample rate switching?

Black hole itself supports it.

What if I want to play Tidal or Qobuz official apps on macOS (not Audirvana or Roon) and want auto sample rate switching to work.

Will Hang Loose do that automatically or its manual process?

 

[hulkss]

I hope you get a reply on the Hang Loose convolver. It appears to be stereo only (in and out) at this time

 

[juicehifi]

I did a brief test of the Hang Loose convolver yesterday. I don't have a Mac here, so I only tested the stand-alone on Windows. It was a 100% problem free installation and startup. Plug & pla the way it is supposed to be. Should be a strong candidate for Mac users.

Perhaps @Mitchco can give us some details?

 

[hulkss]

I did a brief test of the Hang Loose convolver yesterday. I don't have a Mac here, so I only tested the stand-alone on Windows. It was a 100% problem free installation and startup. Plug & pla the way it is supposed to be. Should be a strong candidate for Mac users.

Perhaps @Mitchco can give us some details?

Multi-channel?

 

[Mitchco]

Thanks Bernt @juicehifi for the kind welcome!

Currently, Hang Loose is two channel operation, but multichannel is in the works. I don't have an ETA yet.

@2234rew In standalone mode, BlackHole is indeed used. However, I have not tried Tidal or Qobuz official apps yet. I may have a Qobuz comp subscription, so I can give it a try on my M1 and report back.

In the meantime, folks can read the Operations Guide to get a sense of the capabilities of HLC.

Kind regards,
Mitch

 

[hulkss]

Thanks Bernt @juicehifi for the kind welcome!

Currently, Hang Loose is two channel operation, but multichannel is in the works. I don't have an ETA yet.

@2234rew In standalone mode, BlackHole is indeed used. However, I have not tried Tidal or Qobuz official apps yet. I may have a Qobuz comp subscription, so I can give it a try on my M1 and report back.

In the meantime, folks can read the Operations Guide to get a sense of the capabilities of HLC.

Kind regards,
Mitch

Hi Mitchco,
On my M1 Mac, I'm using Loopback from Rogue Amoeba for multi-channel audio routing and Element to host the X-MCFX convolver. I have also had good luck with Plogue Bidule as a host.

I'll give your convolver a try when multi-channel is available. I always upmix stereo, at least to three channel. Many studios seem to mix with mid/side processing now and an upmix usually sounds really good. It anchors the center image for the off center listeners, especially with my wide sound stage.

It would be nice to not need a host for convolution but sometimes I want to use other plugins too (using Nugen Audio Halo Upmix now).

 

[2234rew]

@2234rew In standalone mode, BlackHole is indeed used. However, I have not tried Tidal or Qobuz official apps yet. I may have a Qobuz comp subscription, so I can give it a try on my M1 and report back.

Thanks @Mitchco - Is there a trial mode we can try it with? That way we can test all the programs ourselves and see if automatic sample rate switching works.

Unless you're happy to test and verify.

 

[Mitchco]

@hulkss Cool! Fyi, HLC is available as both a standalone app and VST3/AU plugins. Runs on M1 too.

@2234rew HLC does automatic filter switching based on "host" sample rate. In standalone mode, the standalone app is the host. For Tidal and Qobuz, the filter sample rate won't automatically switch as they are not the host. If the Tidal and Qobuz app were VST compatible, then the HLC plugin can be used which then would switch filter sample rate based on the source sample rate.

HLC does have a resampler, so in the case of Tidal and Qobuz, you could choose a higher sample rate filter.

Kind regards,
Mitch

 

[2234rew]

HLC does have a resampler, so in the case of Tidal and Qobuz, you could choose a higher sample rate filter.

Thanks @Mitchco , is that using your own resampling or macOS?

I had always assumed macOS resampling is crap but just saw for the first time that macOS resampling is pretty decent:

MEASUREMENTS: Apple Mac OS X ("Yosemite") Software Audio Upsampling

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

While Tidal and Qobuz have 3rd party options like Roon and Audirvana options that support bit perfect and convolution, Apple Music is rumoured to support 24b/192kHz very soon

For example, if playing an Apple Music playlist full of different sample rates, it would be a pain to change manually in the convolver.

So it would be nice to have convolution at the contents original sample rate without resampling but I understand this is tricky to do. Maybe a feature request that could be tackled in future?

But having said that, macOS resampling looks very transparent and sounds it too.

 

[Mitchco]

Hi @2234rew I had a chat with the developer of BlackHole today and he suggests that the issues are actually with those applications...

He got me to test in Audio MIDI setup if manually changing BlackHole sample rate that HLC automatically changes too, and it does. So the signal chain from BlackHole to HLC is working as intended. If the sample rate changes in BlackHole, HLC automatically loads the filter with the same sample rate.

I have Qobuz native app on my Mac M1. Configured to play to BlackHole and then loopback to HLC. When playing 48 kHz material, both BlackHole and HLC switch to 48 kHz. If 192 kHz material is played, then both BlackHole and HLC switches to 192 kHz. Working as intended.

Note, when I tried this with Roon, it did not change BlackHole's sample rate, looks like a bug in Roon...

Are you in a position to verify with Tidal and Spotify that when you switch sample rate that BlackHole does switch sample rates? I have the free version of Spotify loaded, but I can't make heads or tails of where the sample rate is displayed. And for any of the tunes that were labelled hi-res, BlackHole SR did not change, but like I say, I can't be sure what the sample rate is.

Wrt to Apple and hi-rez, they wrote the driver so I am going to assume it follows the proper behaviour of changing BlackHole sample rate which if it does, then HLC will switch too.

Kind regards,
Mitch

 

[2234rew]

Hi @2234rew I had a chat with the developer of BlackHole today and he suggests that the issues are actually with those applications...

He got me to test in Audio MIDI setup if manually changing BlackHole sample rate that HLC automatically changes too, and it does. So the signal chain from BlackHole to HLC is working as intended. If the sample rate changes in BlackHole, HLC automatically loads the filter with the same sample rate.

I have Qobuz native app on my Mac M1. Configured to play to BlackHole and then loopback to HLC. When playing 48 kHz material, both BlackHole and HLC switch to 48 kHz. If 192 kHz material is played, then both BlackHole and HLC switches to 192 kHz. Working as intended.

Note, when I tried this with Roon, it did not change BlackHole's sample rate, looks like a bug in Roon...

Are you in a position to verify with Tidal and Spotify that when you switch sample rate that BlackHole does switch sample rates? I have the free version of Spotify loaded, but I can't make heads or tails of where the sample rate is displayed. And for any of the tunes that were labelled hi-res, BlackHole SR did not change, but like I say, I can't be sure what the sample rate is.

Wrt to Apple and hi-rez, they wrote the driver so I am going to assume it follows the proper behaviour of changing BlackHole sample rate which if it does, then HLC will switch too.

Kind regards,
Mitch

Hi @Mitchco

Thanks for testing and chatting with the BlackHole dude.

I can also confirm Qobuz app changes BlackHole sample rate also.

I don't care about Roon's bug since that has a convolver already.

Spotify is only 44.1kHz (for now - some big news by Apple and Amazon Music HD yesterday) so there will be no SR changing there. So Spotify is no issue.

Tidal app doesn't change BlackHole sample rates for me. I just tested. So that must be a bug I guess.

Apple Music right now is all 44.1kHz so that's fine.

Apple Lossless (incl 192kHz HiRes) is now confirmed to go live next month. I will likely be dumping Tidal for Apple Music lossless. So I will test it next month with BlackHole and report back.

Deezer HiFi is all 44.1kHz also so no worries about SRC there also.

Lots of things changing with streaming world at the moment !

I will do more testing with BlackHole and report back what I find over coming weeks

 

[2234rew]

My mistake @Mitchco - Tidal Desktop app does change BlackHole sample rate correctly. Forgot to enable Exclusive Mode.

So Tidal and Qobuzz apps work properly, so there should be no resampling done by HLC correct? Convolution will happen at their original sample rate?

Will test Apple Music HiRes Lossless next month when it goes live and confirm.

Amazon Music HD isn't available in my country yet so can't test that for a while.

 

[Mitchco]

@2234rew That's correct, no resampling.

 

[Grand_ded]

Hello @2234rew ! Hello @hulkss !

Thanks to both of you I enjoyed my convolution filters with my Macbook but it doesn't work anymore and I have no clue why...

I run BlackHole2ch 0.2.10 and Element 0.46.3 on a MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020, Intel) under macOS Big Sur 11.6.
I was used to load filters in X-MCFX like you.

After several weeks without listening to music with this system, I put it back on but there was no sound anymore. I thought X-MCFX was guilty but it appears that it even doesn't work with a direct link from blackhole to the built-in internal speakers.

I have been spending the last two days trying to troubleshoot my case but without any success.
I have done several clean installs of Element, BlackHole, I have downgraded Element, BlackHole and updated macOS from Catalina to Big Sur but still nothing. Very frustrating.
I opened an issue on Kushview's GitHub and mailed the team asking for support but no answer received yet.

Thanks for your help.
Kind regards,
Thomas

 

[hulkss]

Check the Apple app called "Audio Midi Setup" (in the "other" app folder in Launchpad) and the Apple sound control panel. They are both part of the operating system.

I have the same set-up but with Rogue Amoeba Loopback instead of Black Hole. All is working fine. My output is over Thunderbolt to a Motu Interface.

 

[2234rew]

Hello @2234rew ! Hello @hulkss !

Thanks to both of you I enjoyed my convolution filters with my Macbook but it doesn't work anymore and I have no clue why...

I run BlackHole2ch 0.2.10 and Element 0.46.3 on a MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020, Intel) under macOS Big Sur 11.6.
I was used to load filters in X-MCFX like you.

After several weeks without listening to music with this system, I put it back on but there was no sound anymore. I thought X-MCFX was guilty but it appears that it even doesn't work with a direct link from blackhole to the built-in internal speakers.

View attachment 46001

I have been spending the last two days trying to troubleshoot my case but without any success.
I have done several clean installs of Element, BlackHole, I have downgraded Element, BlackHole and updated macOS from Catalina to Big Sur but still nothing. Very frustrating.
I opened an issue on Kushview's GitHub and mailed the team asking for support but no answer received yet.

Thanks for your help.
Kind regards,
Thomas

Hi Thomas

Did you always have both 2ch and 16ch BlackHole installed at same time?

Uninstall the 16ch - then reboot.

Then retry your simple test again (Blackhole direct to Macbook speakers)

Also make sure Blackhole is selected as "Input" in "Sound" settings

 

[Grand_ded]

Check the Apple app called "Audio Midi Setup" (in the "other" app folder in Launchpad) and the Apple sound control panel. They are both part of the operating system.

I have the same set-up but with Rogue Amoeba Loopback instead of Black Hole. All is working fine. My output is over Thunderbolt to a Motu Interface.

Hello @hulkss , thanks your your prompt reply.
My previous post was already showing the Audio MIDI app so I guess you wanted me to show the sound setting in the system preferences panel. Anyway, Here are the screenshots.

 

[Grand_ded]

Hi Thomas

Did you always have both 2ch and 16ch BlackHole installed at same time?

Uninstall the 16ch - then reboot.

Then retry your simple test again (Blackhole direct to Macbook speakers)

Also make sure Blackhole is selected as "Input" in "Sound" settings

View attachment 46003

Hello @2234rew ,
I uninstalled the 16ch - then reboot.
I selected BlackHole as "input" even if I don't get this part because I was used to select BlackHole as an output in the preferences panel.
Anyway, I followed your indications but still no sound or movement in the mixer levels.

 

[2234rew]

Hello @2234rew ,
I uninstalled the 16ch - then reboot.
I selected BlackHole as "input" even if I don't get this part because I was used to select BlackHole as an output in the preferences panel.
Anyway, I followed your indications but still no sound or movement in the mixer levels.

View attachment 46007
View attachment 46008

Same issue with 44.kHz sample rates?

Change it in Audio MIDI and Element also

 

[Grand_ded]

Same issue with 44.kHz sample rates?

Change it in Audio MIDI and Element also

Yes I tried different sample rates in both Element and MIDI at the same time.

I reset MSC, NVRAM & PRAM but I’m not expecting a big surprise. My last chance will be to do a hard reset of macOS….

 

[2234rew]

My last chance will be to do a hard reset of macOS….

Yikes, this is a really strange occurance that one day working fine and next day with nothing changed, suddenly issues.

Sorry I can't help more here.