My New Theater

[bkeeler10]

Indeed, 30 dB of TL is not easy to achieve even an octave above that.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Indeed, 30 dB of TL is not easy to achieve even an octave above that.

Well I may have learned something new today. I learned all this a long time ago and I’ve now learned that the method I learned is outdated. I’m trying to figure out how to use this new method, which uses an MLS or Sine Sweep approach. ISO 18233 is the new one I guess.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...SULATION_USING_TRANSFER_FUNCTION_MEASUREMENTS

Are you familiar? I still haven’t figured out how to do this. I tried once and the software gave an error that the signal level was too low. I probably was doing it wrong, but maybe REW is also not the software to use for this?

 

[bkeeler10]

I'm not familiar with that information. I will have to set some time aside to thoroughly read that document. Our procedure is to run broadband noise to an omnidirectional source (dodecahedron), set the RTA to average an infinite number of samples, and then slowly sweep the microphone along the wall, a couple feet away. Then run to the other side of the wall and take the same measurement.

 

[bkeeler10]

We really wanted to watch a movie last night, so I pulled out the third F36 for center, set up my pair of A1.4 as surrounds, did a quick and dirty Dirac calibration and sat down to watch the new(ish) Jumanji. I gotta say, it was great! That's the first time I've had surround sound since the theater came down 14 months ago.

The sound was very good, the video looked excellent and I was super happy with the whole thing. It's only going to get better after room treatments, subs with another octave of extension, a full 7.1.4 setup, and careful attention to placement, setup and calibration. I just wish I had a few full days with nothing else to do so I could get it done.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

We really wanted to watch a movie last night, so I pulled out the third F36 for center, set up my pair of A1.4 as surrounds, did a quick and dirty Dirac calibration and sat down to watch the new(ish) Jumanji. I gotta say, it was great! That's the first time I've had surround sound since the theater came down 14 months ago.

The sound was very good, the video looked excellent and I was super happy with the whole thing. It's only going to get better after room treatments, subs with another octave of extension, a full 7.1.4 setup, and careful attention to placement, setup and calibration. I just wish I had a few full days with nothing else to do so I could get it done.

Looks great. I love those speakers.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I'm not familiar with that information. I will have to set some time aside to thoroughly read that document. Our procedure is to run broadband noise to an omnidirectional source (dodecahedron), set the RTA to average an infinite number of samples, and then slowly sweep the microphone along the wall, a couple feet away. Then run to the other side of the wall and take the same measurement.

We should probably have a separate conversation but it makes me feel better that you use that method and aren’t familiar with the other. I felt dumb. Like i should have known this. I think what bothered me is that I had the same idea and was thinking about it being a better approach, but was concerned I didn’t understand well enough how this works to make it work. Now I see it’s actually very straightforward.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I'll be shocked if you don't love the Revel's. They are a really great speaker at a good price, given the performance and finish. I've heard Revel's a number of times, including in my own space, and always loved them. The old Ultima Salon's remain a reference for me. I heard the PerformaBE's at AXPONA and the room sounded so good it was almost boringly so. James Larson and I walked into that room expecting great sound and that's what we heard. There was a handful of rooms that we had more private time with, and while not my favorite experience, it was in the top 3. The Revel, TAD's, and Salk's were by far my favorite sounding speakers at AXPONA. TAD and Salk were a surprise, Revel was not.

Without tooting my own horn, I'd like to add that Revel's in general, and the Salon's in particular offer a truly ear-opening experience. Harman's trained listening panel has something to do with that, as do their scientific and psycho-acoustic principles. Top-to-bottom coherence, timbral accuracy, power compression, and a slew of other performance parameters make these speakers a delight to listen to!

 

[bkeeler10]

Wow, it's been over a month since I updated the thread with my progress. I don't even remember what the last update was. Anyway, hard though it may seem to believe, we're still not entirely done. I need shelves in my component closet and they are not there yet. They should have been there a long time ago. General contractor was supposed to get them done, but honestly I'm about to cut the wood and build them myself, if I didn't have so much else to do.

I need speakers for overhead - and after much debate and wringing of hands trying to figure out how to safely mount consumer speakers on the ceiling without drilling into them . . . , I've kinda sorta decided I might get a commercial-minded speaker with built-in mounting system for the overheads. The one I'm considering is the Tannoy AMS 6DC. I have hookups and might get them for literally nothing, so it's worth a try and I have heard they work well for this sort of thing. With Dirac doing EQ on them, they ought to be relatively seamless.

For subs I was going to build two boxes and put Rythmik's sealed F18 parts in them. But with the sale going on through the end of the year on the F18, and considering my lack of expertise building suitable boxes, I have mostly decided to just buy a pair of F18 from Rythmik.

Acoustic treatments are not in place yet, but I hope to do some of that over the Christmas break. Some of them need to wait until I settle on final positions for speakers and get the overheads installed.

I really hope to have this wrapped up shortly after the New Year. It's killing me that it's still not done. Between keeping track of six kids, impossibly slow general contractor, getting our house put back together after the remodel/addition, and traveling a lot for work the past several months, progress has been painfully slow. Looking on the bright side, the end result will be even sweeter. Right? . . .

 

[Tony V.]

Six kids would keep a guy occupied thats for sure just my three are a handful! It will be all worth it in the end, enjoy the Christmas holidays and be blessed.

 

[bkeeler10]

Update

My "audio rack" (component closet) now has shelving in it, and I've installed all the equipment. I've also hung a few acoustical panels, and will continue to do so over the course of the week. I didn't get as much done over the holidays as I was hoping, but better than nothing.

I have ordered a pair of Rythmik F18 in black oak, which should be here late next week. I also ordered the Panasonic UB820 UHD bluray player from Value Electronics, but will have to wait until they restock in about two weeks.

Next up is to order a few cables and video calibration equipment, which I will do before the week is out. Then I can finally stop bleeding money . . .

Getting really close to being complete. I will fill in the details on the reserved posts in the first page at some point. Pictures will also be forthcoming

 

[AudiocRaver]

Great work! It just never seems to end, does it?

 

[bkeeler10]

It really doesn't seem to end, but there's finally light at the end of the tunnel. Time-wise and money-wise. My goal has been to put together a system that will keep the upgrade bug away for a good long time

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

Those F18s are fantastic, and heavy beasts. Helped a friend of mine lug 3 of them down to his theater, along with 4 F15s. A beer was required. Probably more than one.

 

[bkeeler10]

What?! 3 F18 and 4 F15? Wow.

At least my theater is on ground level, and only three steps down to the lower level. Should be manageable.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

He runs large electrostatic panels all the way around, so the 3 F18s are directly tied to the LCR channels, and the 4 F15s are dedicated for LFE.

He claims he's not a bass freak. And, to be honest, he doesn't run them that hot. But it's a large room and takes a lot to pressurize. It's frankly the best, most balanced surround sound I've heard in my life, and I watched The Phantom Menace in The Stag at Skywalker Ranch.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

He runs large electrostatic panels all the way around, so the 3 F18s are directly tied to the LCR channels, and the 4 F15s are dedicated for LFE.

He claims he's not a bass freak. And, to be honest, he doesn't run them that hot. But it's a large room and takes a lot to pressurize. It's frankly the best, most balanced surround sound I've heard in my life, and I watched The Phantom Menace in The Stag at Skywalker Ranch.

That’s a pretty wild setup.

What electrostats does he run?

I heard a multichannel music system once that ran 5 electrostats with a handful of subwoofers. It too was one of the best systems I had ever heard. It was setup as a one-person experience with all the speakers in a circle around a single chair.

There is actually some research Into 3D sound that seems to suggest that very narrow dispersion is needed for these kinds of systems to operate optimally. Electrostats have very narrow dispersion (hence why some companies curve the panels). I’ve long wanted to try this in my own house but I can’t justify inverting in 5 electrostatic speakers for an experiment.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

Well, I stand corrected. I did a quick Google search to pick up the models, and they're not electrostatics. They are all various models from the vintage Infinity Reference Standard series. I'll have to ask which he's using. I know the surrounds are smaller than the LCRs.

 

[bkeeler10]

The Rythmik subs have landed! Got 'em unboxed, placed in potential locations, Dirac'd and had a brief listen to stereo sources last night. Nothing challenging at all, but they sounded good. Can't wait to unleash them with some truly demanding material. Measurements with REW show extension below 10 Hz, which is fantastic.

I will be doing lots of experimentation with placement to see what works best. Right now I have them on the centers of the front and back walls (well not quite center - my center channel speaker won't allow it, so I placed that one off-center to one side, and the back one off-center to the other side so they're symmetrical left-to-right). They are firing to the side walls to get the cones closer to the boundaries. I discovered with my old subs that these positions measure well, but oddly don't sound as good as both subs on the front wall 1/4 points (both positions Dirac'd). So I guess I'll be lugging the new ones around and doing lots of measurements.

See the pictures. Not sure why my son is wide-eyed on the one picture, but that's how my eyes probably looked when I saw how big these are haha. Also I've included a picture of the equipment installed on the new shelving. Also of note, my overhead speakers arrived at the house today, I'm told. Getting close !!!!

 

[j.man1503]

Keep up the good work. There's always things that pop up when we thing we're almost finished. System looks great so far.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Very cool!

I don’t have extension below 10hz! Lucky man.

One thing I’ve learned is that extension that low is hard to achieve with ported subs in the equation. I have three sealed subs but one of them uses a Dayton plate amp with a 17hz high pass. Two more extend down lower but can’t play all that loud. The overall system response is dominated by the porter 18” sub that is tuned to 18-19hz. While the alignment is a QB3, it doesn’t seem to matter. I plan to play with port damping but basically, subharmonic content in my theater is absent.

And this is why I go back and forth between ported and sealed on a routine basis!

 

[bkeeler10]

Part of the reason why I wanted sealed subs. Especially in a small room, a sealed sub can have quite a lot of output down low, where a ported sub tuned to around 20 will have basically no output down at 10 Hz I imagine. Although you might be aware that Rythmik has a couple ported subs tuned to 12 Hz, so you would probably have significant output at 10 Hz with those.

I think Edge of Tomorrow is in order soon . . .

 

[bkeeler10]

All right guys, I haven't said a word since January. I've been extremely busy at work and at home, so it's been hard to find time to forum much. Anyway, my system is mostly set up and running well. Acoustic treatments are sorta mostly in place, all the speakers are in place (though the sides and surrounds are not yet on their permanent stands), and I've been enjoying it quite a bit.

Things I've been doing
- Installing acoustic treatments, including painting diffusors by hand (probably 15 hours into the painting alone).
- Learning (trying to learn) video calibration and calibrating the projector.
- Playing around with sub placement, phase alignment and such (thank you, REW!) and integrating old subs with new Rythmiks.
- Dirac calibration (a handful of times) and playing around with target curves.

Still lots of little things to do:

- Install door seals on the two doors.
- Build stands for side and rear surrounds.
- Mount large bass traps (currently pulling duty as speaker stands haha).
- Mount side wall first reflection point treatments (currently leaning against the wall).
- Experiment with diffusor locations and permanently mount (I have some localized flutter echo issues to eliminate).
- Finish details on projector hush box.
- Find a light dimmer switch that works with Logitech smart hub (any suggestions?)
- Acquire said Logitech Harmony remote.

My older kids have been wanting to watch Marvel movies, so we've been watching them in sort-of chronological order to catch them up. Last night we watched the 4K release of Guardians of the Galaxy vol2. What a great soundtrack, and it sure looked and sounded nice on my setup. Very gratifying.

I will try to be more diligent about keeping this thread up-to-date on progress until "completion," whatever that means. I'll probably post some measurement graphs and such for input and suggestions, and post some pictures.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Check out the Lutron Ceseta light-switches. We have them. Wi-Fi, work great. I believe they are compatible with Lutron.

 

[bkeeler10]

Just a tease, but here is my subwoofer response at the moment. This is before Dirac. I've got the Rythmiks in the front corners of the room, and my old subs (a pair of Phase Technology 12" passive radiator subs) playing as a single sub sitting right next to each other in the middle of the back wall. I've high-passed the Phase Techs hard at 30 Hz (48 dB per octave), since their output drops like a stone below there and I don't want them limiting my output too much. I was hoping to smooth out response above 30 Hz by doing this. A miniDSP 2x4 and many REW measurements were used to arrive at the best phase alignment.

Previously I ran with the Rythmiks alone, in the front left and back right corners of the room. It worked pretty well, but I didn't keep a measurement of that unfortunately, so I will have to measure it again.

 

[bkeeler10]

And here are a few pictures of the current state of things.