Sub Position and Speaker Type Advice

[robkh1984v2]

Hi folks! It's been over two years since my original post. Since then, I've moved 3 times, but it just so happens that my latest move was into an apartment that is nearly identical to the specs and layout I had when I first made this post! (Those audio gods must be laughing at me )

Alas, I have a bit more info and a few questions focusing again on speaker placement and type of speakers than the speaker brands. I added a few brands and types I was considering further down in case you have any feedback there as well.

GOAL
Upgrade Living Room from a large soundbar (Yamaha YSP-5600) + SVS SB-16 Ultra sub to a 5.1 or 5.1.4 setup. My poor sub deserves better!

Current Living Room environment (yeah, not ideal)

• L-shaped layout with kitchen to the right
  • Total Living Room area: 509.23' ft^2 (29' 4.5" x 29' 9.75")
  • Total Living Room volume: 4541 ft^3
  • TV/Living Room area: 15' 9" W x 15' D ft^2
  • TV to Couch: 13' 6" (out of 15' D)
  • Ceiling: 8' 10"W
• Wood floors (Let's assume rugs aren't an option.)
• Couch is against the back wall, against the left wall (Note: Yeah, I tried the trick of pulling it away from the back wall an inch a day, but that didn't work. Lol. I could swap the Loveseat and 3-cushion sofas if that makes any difference.)
• Mostly bare walls. Planning on getting blackout curtains, which could help with absorption on the left and back walls. Open to adding more absorption and/or diffusion panels, but not on the ceiling.)

I'd love feedback to help make the best out of my current layout!

1)_Subwoofer location

• Front corner?
• Side mid-wall?

2)_Front Stage location, type

• FR and FL on/off of the TV stand?
• Lining up the Center to the Loveseat/Couch or Centered to the TV wall?
• Loveseat or 3-person Couch on back wall?

Factors​

• Having the sub in the front corner or side wall affects this decision.
• TV stand to the bottom of the TV = 11". Also don't have much room on the TV stands to the sides of the TV.
  • Limited options for bookshelves on the stand (eg, Arendal 1961 Bookshelves (11.3" H))
  • More options if I put them to the sides of the TV stand (eg, Arendal 1961 Monitors (16.73" H), Arendal 1723 S Bookshelves (15.16" H), or SVS Ultra Bookshelves (15" H)).

3)_Surround locations, type

• Type: Directional v Bipole (eg, SVS Ultra Surrounds) v Tripole (eg, Arendal 1961 Surround or 1723 Surround S). Another option would be using SVS Prime Elevations mounted horizontally. Not sure which wall for the Surround Lefts. (That's next)
• Location: Both on the back wall or should the one on the Surround Left be on the side wall, to the left of the couch?

4)_Heights locations, types (on-wall only)

• Front Heights: directly above the FL and FR bookshelves or wider apart to the top corners of the front wall?
• Rear Heights: Inline with the Front Heights? If so, that would mean the Rear Right Height would be closer to the Couch than the Surround Right speaker.

------Additional Info----------

CURRENT HW:

• TV: LG C9 (65")
• Gaming: PS5
• Soundbar: Yamaha YSP-5600
• Sub: SVS SB-16 Ultra with SVS SoundPath Subwoofer Isolation feet

FUTURE PLANS:

1)_AVR: HDMI 2.1, eARC, VRR,4K 120Hz or 8K 60Hz, Dirac Live +Bass Control

• NAD T778, but the next version of this if it comes out in the next few months
• Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 16-Ch

2)_Speaker Brands:

SVS

• Fronts: Ultra Bookshelves, Ultra Center
• Surrounds: Ultra Surrounds (Bipoles), Prime Bookshelves, or Prime Elevations (horizontally)
• Heights: Prime Elevations

Arendal Sound, likely the 1961 series

• Fronts: MTM Monitors or two-way Bookshelves?
• Surrounds: 1961 Surrounds (Tripole), 1961 Bookshelves, or 1723 Surround S (can act like a Directional when tripole mode is disabled, unlike the 1961 Surrounds where Tripole is always on)
• Heights: 1961 Height modules (similar to the Prime Elevations, but with a wider waveguide.

I don't have enough posts to link out to my Google Photos album that more pictures of the layout and various combinations that could help visualize how one factor affects another. Happy to send a message to someone on here if you could add it for me.

 

[Tony V.]

Hello and welcome to the forum,

Ideally you should start a new thread for something like this but here goes:
As far as sub position its very dependent on your space. without seeing some actual sound graphs from REW it would be hard to recommend. Generally a corner placement can boost the subs ability to fill a room due to whats called corner loading however this can also make it sound boomy and may not work will in all cases. Doing a crawl test can help by playing a test tone through the sub and crawling around the room to see how even it sounds or by placing the sub at the listening position and crawling around the outside of the room to find where it sounds best then place the sub in that location

 

[Todd Anderson]

Great advice, Tony. Sub crawl at the minimum... more optimally, measure! :-)

Also agree, this should be part of a new thread. I'll move it now.

 

[Todd Anderson]

As for your question about speaker brands. I've never heard Arendal Sound in action, so can't comment on them. BUT, I reviewed the SVS Ultra System. They are great speakers.

You can read the SVS review, here:

The Ultimate SVS Ultra 7.2.4 Atmos System Review

When I originally pitched SVS to review “The Ultimate SVS Ultra Atmos System,” I knew my ears were in for a treat, but I had no idea that a certified sonic beast was about to be unleashed in my reference home theater. Yes, I’ve had exposure to the company’s popular products, however my only...

www.avnirvana.com

 

[robkh1984v2]

Thanks, Todd and Toni! I'll try to setup REW and take some measurements. I've been reading up on that for a few weeks, so might as well do it.
No need to reply below unless a few of the options for the sub are a definite no go.

Update: I moved up the couch a few feet off the back wall.

A. Focusing on where the sub should go, which option would be best?

1) front left corner, to the left of the TV;
2) ) to the right of the TV (not a corner;
3) similar to #1, but pulled out about 2' from the front wall, closer to being below the side window;
4) back left corner, behind the main listening position;
5) behind the middle of the couch; or
6) middle of the back wall, more of the middle the room than the TV area is.

Attaching a picture of if I went with Option #4. Moving off the front wall opens up the sides of the TV stand so I can add bookshelf speakers on stands. I could also go with On Wall speakers and leave the sub up front, but it'd look too busy.

B. Any other thoughts on the surrounds? Facing each other on the back wall.

Legend
Red = 5 main speakers (TBD)
Black box = sub (SVS SB-16 Ultra)
Green = Atmos (likely Prime Elevations)

Thanks a ton!

Rob

 

[robkh1984v2]

As for your question about speaker brands. I've never heard Arendal Sound in action, so can't comment on them. BUT, I reviewed the SVS Ultra System. They are great speakers.

You can read the SVS review, here:

The Ultimate SVS Ultra 7.2.4 Atmos System Review

When I originally pitched SVS to review “The Ultimate SVS Ultra Atmos System,” I knew my ears were in for a treat, but I had no idea that a certified sonic beast was about to be unleashed in my reference home theater. Yes, I’ve had exposure to the company’s popular products, however my only...

www.avnirvana.com

Thanks, Todd!

 

[Todd Anderson]

Looking at your new layout, I think it was a great move to move the couch a few feet off the back wall. Having seating pushed up against the wall isn't ideal (audio-wise). If I were you, I'd start off by measuring the sub in that back corner (behind the couch) and the front left corner (to the side of the TV). Both of those positions will benefit output with some corner loading. As for your rear surrounds, angle those to fire over your seating position... just make sure you run calibration on your Yamaha so it can get distance and channel levels correct. I wouldn't fire them at each other. Check out the SVS satellite speakers, they'd be perfectly sized for that kind of application (and will be easy to mount using speaker wall mounts.

Prime Elevations are a fantastic Atmos speaker. I have 8 of them and they're spot-on. The ceiling mounting kit works well. Are you thinking of mounting them high-wall? Or are you going to mount them on the ceiling?

If mounting on the ceiling, I have a suggestion

 

[robkh1984v2]

Looking at your new layout, I think it was a great move to move the couch a few feet off the back wall. Having seating pushed up against the wall isn't ideal (audio-wise). If I were you, I'd start off by measuring the sub in that back corner (behind the couch) and the front left corner (to the side of the TV). QUOTE="Both of those positions will benefit output with some corner loading

Thanks! I'll get some measurements up in the next few weeks. I was wondering whether such a huge sub (SVS SB-16 Ultra) "needs" corner loading. I'm also debating whether adding a 2nd sub would really make a big difference, but let me get the measurements up first.

As for your rear surrounds, angle those to fire over your seating position... just make sure you run calibration on your Yamaha so it can get distance and channel levels correct. I wouldn't fire them at each other.

I'd be adding an AVR once I get the speakers, something with Dirac Live, which will likely be later this year. (I'm waiting for one that has the HDMI 2.1, preferably 4k 120hz). Is the main difference between firing the rear surrounds at each other vs towards the listening position that the former is better when the couch is closer to the rear wall and the latter is more aligned with Dolby's spec

Check out the SVS satellite speakers, they'd be perfectly sized for that kind of application (and will be easy to mount using speaker wall mounts.

+1. I was looking at either the Prime Satellites or even the Prime Elevations mounted horizontally on the back wall.

View attachment 39151

PrimeElevations are a fantastic Atmos speaker. I have 8 of them and they're spot-on. The ceiling mounting kit works well. Are you thinking of mounting them high-wall? Or are you going to mount them on the ceiling?

If mounting on the ceiling, I have a suggestion.

How'd you setup 8?! Lol. Front and Rear Heights and two rows of Middle heights?

I was thinking mine would be Front Heights and Rear Heights, in the top corner of the front wall (above the FL and FR speakers) and the top corner of the rear wall (inline with the Front Heights). I assume these would be "ceiling" mounted then? They'd be the green boxes in my diagram.

Not sure if you heard, but Gary (SVS President) mentioned that they'll be announcing a few new products in the next few months, the first one during the Feb 25 SVS Virtual Happy Hour. I'm trying to picture how sweet SVS Ultra Elevations would be! A guy can dream, right?!
(58 min mark,

)

 

[Todd Anderson]

It may not need corner loading, but those I think those two locations might end up being the easiest for you to place the sub (thus being a really good place to start). The biggest benefit of adding a second sub is that you can strategically place it to help even out the bass response in your room. Secondarily, it helps ease the burden of only one sub baring the brunt of LFE duties (but, your SB16 is probably not going to have any issues with that). Ideally, though, you deploy two subs and take the time to integrate them properly... your reward will be smoother bass output with nearly unlimited headroom!

As for the rear surround speaker placement, I'd probably have them fire out toward the middle of the room in either couch placement scenario. Just speaking from experience. I might have a different take if your wall along the left side of couch were bumped out a few feet. Even at that, you still have the issue of the right rear surround needing to be mounted on the rear wall. If I were you, I'd position then a foot above head level (when seated) and aim them toward the middle of the room. If you can demo that position before making anything permanent, go that route first! ;-). You could definitely mount the Elevations horizontally, angled toward the primary seating position. I'd have to look up specs, but I'd assume they are similar to the Prime Satellites in terms of playback capabilities.

Yes, I have front and rear heights and two rows of top channels. They can be used as 8 top channels for Atmos or 4 height channels for Auro 3-D. My suggestion, for you, would be to position your atmos channels like this, with the front pair (closest to TV) firing toward the middle position on your couch. You might be able to move them a smidge closer to the front wall, but not too much.

I've explored Atmos channel positioning for a few past reviews and found this to best sound 4-channel Atmos deployment. Positioning them on the front and rear walls will technically work, BUT you'll hear a discernable gap in sound movements from the front to the back of your room. The configuration I'm suggesting is the same one I ended up deploying when I had a 4 channel Atmos height deployment (following some advice from an industry contact and my own experimentation).

As for SVS's future announcements, they haven't tipped their hand yet. But, I'm sure I'll get some press materials a few days before they launch. If I had to guess, I'd bet they announce a few entries into their prime pinnacle series OR another wireless option. But, those are just guesses ;-).

 

[robkh1984v2]

You could definitely mount the Elevations horizontally, angled toward the primary seating position. I'd have to look up specs, but I'd assume they are similar to the Prime Satellites in terms of playback capabilities.

I put some comparisons together, including the Arendal speakers for comparison.

	SVS Prime Elevations	Arendal Sound 1961 Heights	SVS Prime Satellites	SVS Prime Bookshelves	SVS Ultra Bookshelves	Arendal Sound 1961 Bookshelves	SVS Ultra Surrounds (Bipole)	Arendal Sound 1961 Surrounds (Triaxal)
Rated bandwidth	55 Hz-25 kHz (±3 dB)	75-20KHz (+/-3dB)	69 Hz-25 kHz (±3 dB	48 Hz-25 kHz (±3 dB)	45 Hz-32 kHz (+/-3 dB)	75-20KHz (+/-3dB)	58 Hz-32 kHz (±3 dB)	75-20KHz (+/-3dB)
Nominal impedance	8 ohms	4 ohms	8 ohms	8 ohms	8 ohms	4 ohms	8 ohms	4 ohms
Sensitivity	87 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz)	84dB/2.83v/1m	85 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz)	87 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz)	87 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz)	84dB/2.83v/1m	87 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz)	84dB/2.83v/1m
Recommended amplifier power	20-150 watts	180 watts	20-150 watt	20-150 watt	20-150 watt	180 watts	20-250 watts	180 watts
Tweeter-to-woofer crossover	2.5 kHz (12 dB/octave slopes)	1500Hz	2.3 kHz (12 dB/octave slopes)	2.3 kHz (12 dB/octave slopes)	2 kHz	1500Hz	2.0 kHz	1500Hz 200Hz (side)
Price	$200/each $400/pair	$350/each $700/pair	$135/each $270/pair	$250/each $500/pair	$500/each $1000/pair	$350/each $700/pair	$500/each $1000/pair	$400/each $800/pair
URL	Prime Elevation Best sounding home audio elevation speaker for Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D. Endless versatility as front, surround, center and/or LCR home theater speaker. www.svsound.com	1961 Series - Speakers - arendalsound.com 1961 Series - Speakers arendalsound.com	Prime Satellite Amazingly big sound from a small home audio speaker, the Prime Satellite defies expectations as a front, surround, center or height effect speaker. www.svsound.com	Prime Bookshelf SVS Prime Bookshelf speakers deliver a massive soundstage with powerful bass and pinpoint accuracy for stereo and home theater. www.svsound.com	Ultra Bookshelf Pinpoint accuracy, stunning dynamics, powerful bass and exquisite audio design for stereos and home theater. www.svsound.com	1961 Series - Speakers - arendalsound.com 1961 Series - Speakers arendalsound.com	Ultra Surround Innovative surround sound speaker for 5.1, 7.1 and all home theater systems. SVS Ultra Surrounds play in bipole, dipole or Duet mode as 2 speakers in one cabinet. www.svsound.com	1961 Series - Speakers - arendalsound.com 1961 Series - Speakers arendalsound.com

I've explored Atmos channel positioning for a few past reviews and found this to best sound 4-channel Atmos deployment. Positioning them on the front and rear walls will technically work, BUT you'll hear a discernable gap in sound movements from the front to the back of your room. The configuration I'm suggesting is the same one I ended up deploying when I had a 4 channel Atmos height deployment (following some advice from an industry contact and my own experimentation).

View attachment 39157

Are you proposing having the 4 Heights speakers more of a top left right type of setup, angled sideways toward the listening area? That could work, but the angled Elevations on the left top corner may direct the sound a bit further into the living area than the center of the main couch, but could be doable.

As for SVS's future announcements, they haven't tipped their hand yet. But, I'm sure I'll get some press materials a few days before they launch. If I had to guess, I'd bet they announce a few entries into their prime pinnacle series OR another wireless option. But, those are just guesses ;-).

 

[Todd Anderson]

Those Prime Elevations are looking pretty good, eh? Middle/ground price point and the performance parameters are perfect for surround duty. Plus, they are angled with mounting brackets ;-)

As for the height speakers, this is the orientation I'd suggest for firing:

Again, the placement of the "front" speakers might not be exactly right in the image. I'd use this(#6) as a general guide:

You'll notice that Dolby has the rear speaker behind the listening position. Personally, I've found a Top Middle and Top Front placement to give the most seamless experience, but you could certainly slide those top middle to Top Rear.

Dolby also says speakers should be down-firing. If your room has super tall ceilings (10ft plus), I think you'd find that works well. But (again, my experience) says that lower ceilings definitely benefit from angling the sound (which the Elevation Prime speaker does perfectly).

 

[robkh1984v2]

This is spot on feedback! My ceilings are just under 9', so I'll keep this in mind.

Next steps for me:

1. REW for the Sub to see which spot works best;
2. Keep an eye out on the upcoming AVRs;
3. Keep researching speakers for the floor level (eg, SVS, Arendal Sound, Kef LS50 II Meta)
4. Purchase
5. Setup
6. Enjoy
7. Report back on here!

 

[Todd Anderson]

Definitely ask questions as they come along... you might want to start some speaker threads and see if anyone has opinions about some of the options you’re looking at.

AVR models might start trickling out a bit in Q2, with most of the heavy hitters coming in Q3. Although, Onkyo and Pioneer both will be rolling out their new Dirac models at some point. I actually have a call with their PR team this week, if I learn of any any info that can be discussed publicly, I’ll share it. But I think they are still keeping most details under wrap. So, if details are embargoed, I’ll have to wait until they give the green light.

I do think both of those brands might tick a lot of boxes for you. Of course, don’t discount Denon/Marantz with Audyssey XT32... solid receivers!

SVS will indeed have coming announcements. We’ll cover those! :-)

 

[Todd Anderson]

Just to add... making sure your AVR gets distance and channel levels set is going to be key to your overall experience. Sounds like you’re headed down that path, but wanted to mention that! ;-)