Synyrgy Cynyma II ( Pronounced: Lynyrd Skynyrd Too)

[NBPK402]

Do your speakers like being out from the walls? You can also treat your walls next to the speakers to help give the impression that the speakers are farther from the walls.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Most definitely, and not just for SBIR reasons. I’ve set them up in three very different rooms:

1. Semi free-standing spaced ~8ft apart in a 5-wall, open concept room (with 10ft vaulted ceiling) greater than 10ft from front or side walls.
2. Traditional layout spaced ~7.5ft apart in a 4-wall, 16x24x8 open concept room greater than 6ft from back wall and 3ft from side walls.
3. Traditional layout spaced ~5.5ft apart in a 4-wall, 9x13x8 tiny rectangle ~4ft from back wall but only 0.8ft from sidewall.

The last two rooms used acoustic panels at both first and second reflection points. They also used floor-to-ceiling bass traps on the front wall. No acoustic panels or trapping were used in the first room.

Granted, none of these rooms allow apples to apples comparisons. But I went to such pains to try and relay how much better and convincing they perform in the first two rooms. Yeah, they sound okay in that last room, but the magic is gone. No reach-out-and-touch-you quality to the musicians, little to no sound outside the L/R speaker stage. Depth severely constricted.

In other words, my speakers don’t “disappear” into the stage unless well away from the sidewalls—and unless fed appropriate source material—even when those sidewalls are acoustically treated. I think acoustic treatment can only counteract handicapped speaker placement to a certain degree.

I guess I’m trying to say that I enjoy HT in my current room ( #3 ). But it’s only just okay for stereo music listening. I’ve been a 2-ch hobbyist for roughly 45 years and value high quality recordings of good performances reproduced over a properly set up high-end two channel system. Serving up the most convincing holographic band may not be possible in an 11x17 mixed-purpose room, but I’m going to give it my best shot!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Just realized I never explained that music and movies are destination activities for me. That means they are important enough as art forms to be served up in the best light possible.

I don’t use them in the background while doing something else. I plan them so they're not interrupted. I’m annoyed when others talk or make noise. And I play them back on my best gear, not on a smartphone.

 

[NBPK402]

I agree room treatment is not the end al yo problems, but in my experience it gave me better clarity and soundstage. For me it was the biggest change I did to my setup, and I will be doing it again in my new room even though I know this room (even though it is much bigger) will never sound as good as my older 15x23 room. New room is not dedicated, but is 19x almost 40 with a 32' Boveda ceiling.

I remember years ago going to any high end stores and demoing equipment too. I do know that my setup to me, and my friends sounded better than systems costing 5 times as much as mine. In my last setup my friend tried to make his room sound like mine, but he never quite made it 100%, but it was almost there, and we were able to play movies, sacds, and other CDs, and hear the same things.we even heard things in our setups that Dealers with setups over $100k could not hear.

I am sure you will get there soon...just keep up the tuning as sometimes an inch can be the difference you are looking for.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I agree room treatment is not the end al yo problems, but in my experience it gave me better clarity and soundstage. For me it was the biggest change I did to my setup, and I will be doing it again in my new room even though I know this room (even though it is much bigger) will never sound as good as my older 15x23 room. New room is not dedicated, but is 19x almost 40 with a 32' Boveda ceiling.

Sounds like you’re getting good results with your acoustic solution. It *is* an eye-opening and emotional experience when hearing properly implemented treatments!

My growing disappointment—based on my experience with these speakers in my current room—is that my system’s 2-ch performance will also be handicapped in the new, similarly-sized room. I know what the Salons are capable of, and this ain’t it!

Now please don’t get me wrong, I’m neither an acoustics expert nor a speaker setup guru. My (admittedly limited) experience and knowledge strongly suggest that excellent SS&I is only achievable when speakers are pulled away from sidewalls. Yes, I went out on a limb there by using “speakers” in general, rather than “Salons” in particular, because I’ve never heard of getting good 2-ch results that way.

I remember years ago going to any high end stores and demoing equipment too. I do know that my setup to me, and my friends sounded better than systems costing 5 times as much as mine.

I’ll be the first to wave that flag! Properly setup entry-level gear can trounce poorly setup high-end stuff. The converse is also true. But what happens when both are set up equally well in suitable acoustic environments? There are diminishing returns to contend with! The more expensive (assumingly better) system would be favored by those who value such minor differences.

In my last setup my friend tried to make his room sound like mine, but he never quite made it 100%, but it was almost there, and we were able to play movies, sacds, and other CDs, and hear the same things.we even heard things in our setups that Dealers with setups over $100k could not hear.

Yup, expensive gear can look pretty but when it’s time for the rubber to meet the road, the room can either grease the skids to audio nirvana or cause an abrupt choke and puke.

I am sure you will get there soon...just keep up the tuning as sometimes an inch can be the difference you are looking for.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Once you lower a room’s noise floor and control the proper reflections while avoiding overdamping and inappropriate absorption, all the good audiophile superlatives start to sprout. Clarity. Intelligibility. Channel separation.

It’s a lofty goal. I’m not there yet, but thanks again for helping me keep up my spirit!

 

[NBPK402]

Well we have to make do with what room we have to work with...unless we build a dedicated room.

 

[JStewart]

Well we have to make do with what room we have to work with...unless we build a dedicated room.

There's also a certain satisfaction for getting the most we can from the room we have.

I’ll be the first to wave that flag! Properly setup entry-level gear can trounce poorly setup high-end stuff. The converse is also true. But what happens when both are set up equally well in suitable acoustic environments? There are diminishing returns to contend with! The more expensive (assumingly better) system would be favored by those who value such minor differences.

Having been to my first audio show this past year, I have to agree with you guys.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Alert the media; we have a winner!
I’ve arrived at suitable speaker starting points for a short-wall setup. All of the previous scenarios either position the listener too close to the speakers, or the speakers too close to the sidewalls. I have yet to discover a theoretical layout that favors long-wall setup in a 17x11 room. Here are the two deciding scenarios based on Wayne’s 3rd Option for Deep SS&I:

Long-wall Setup (favors audio reproduction?)
Wayne’s SS&I Starting Points Alt Method

Fix LP 3’ off back wall
Then C = (11 - 3) x 12 = 96”

If assign ( C/A )=1.75 instead of 2.4 GM
Then A = 54.9”

Also assign ( B/A )=1.08 instead of 1.4 AVG
Then B = 59.3”


Short-wall Setup (favors video reproduction?)
Wayne’s SS&I Starting Points Alt Method

The money seat will be fixed relative to the back wall by taking 2nd row seating into account. With 2nd row 1ft off back wall, 1ft between rows, and 70” reclined seat length,

LP is fixed ~8ft off back wall.
Then C = (17 - 8) x 12 = 108”

If assign ( C/A )=1.75 instead of 2.4 GM
Then A = 61.7”

Also assign ( B/A )=1.08 instead of 1.4 AVG
Then B = 66.7”

Final locations will of course depend on listening trials during the Making Adjustments phase of tuning, and on practical considerations such as row spacing and viewing angles.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I’m including he following links for reference in case I want to experiment with alternate methods when I first start auditioning the room.

Here’s an alternate method of speaker placement for studio monitoring and critical listening.

And here’s a hand-in-hand alternate method for minimizing bass modes.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Momentarily humoring myself by continuing down the path of short-wall setup, I sketched the new layout to approximate scale and attached it to Post #2 (FLOOR PLAN & VIEWS). It's repeated here for
convenience. The seats are shown in their maximum reclined positions, and can be butted up against objects dueu to their near-vertical movement of their seat-backs. There are obviously a lot of improvements that could be made. Pushing the speakers closer to the front wall and using a drop-down screen in front of them would allow more screen-size options. It would also allow the center to be raised to the proper height (closer to similar drivers in mains). I have yet to check if my front-row viewing distance is satisfactory. I can see three or four possible locations for the sub, depending on actual room furnishings and arrangements. There doesn't seem to be much room to squeeze between chairs and wall or subwoofer and chairs. It also seems as if there will be some "musical chairs" being played if anyone in the 2nd row needs to get in/out during a show--an annoyance for sure, but one which will not need to be frequently endured.

05' 02" Listening Distance (to speaker baffle plane)
10' 00" Viewing Distance (to front wall)
05' 06" Speaker Separation (on centers)
02' 07" Speaker Side Wall Clearance (to cabinet)
03' 09” Speaker Front Wall Clearance (to cabinet)

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

When it comes time to take viewing angles into account, I think the 2nd row will not introduce any issues. Drawing a line-of-sight arrow between the 2nd row seated positions and the screen edges shows that the speakers will encroach somewhat on the field of vision. It would benefit the room's HT functionality if the screen were moved forward slightly, or the speakers apart. Since the latter option isn't desirable in light of my listening priorities, I would prefer to move the screen rather than the speakers. I think it's time to go off on a projector-related tangent in order to figure out not just throw distance, but also whether or not the speakers are in the projector's way. How do you do that? Comments, questions, suggestions?

EDIT: Arrrggghhh! I spoke too soon! Just noticed I forgot to adjust the scale of speaker separation, which would definitely affect visible screen area.for both rows! An updated version is embedded below. Please note that the speaker positions are approximate. Final locations will be determined by listening trials and HT compromises. I am skeptical a viable solution exists that would satisfy the dual-functionality of a listening room / HT given the fixed seating arrangement and room size. An alternate SS&I Speaker Setup is needed to get the speakers closer to the front wall for a drop-down screen.

 

[JStewart]

Crazy thought:: Is there such a thing as a track that the speakers could be put on so they could be pushed back for HT and pulled forward for 2 Channel?

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Maybe not too crazy. Why not adapt one of those rail systems they mount the camera on to film concert videos? Instead of spikes, locking casters might be used!

 

[NBPK402]

Or you could place some kind of mark or something so you could move the speakers to the tuned location easily. One of the Hi End Stores had marks on the carpet so they new where each speaker sounded best.

 

[Todd Anderson]

I'm kind of liking this idea of speakers that move. The only problem would be if you're using any sort of processor with onboard calibration or settings (such as distance, etc).

Maybe in-wall speakers with an AT screen mated to one processor... and movable towers for music?

 

[NBPK402]

Dirac! When I had dirac...you could save up to 4 settings, and select the one you want by pushing a button. I was using it for front row, 2nd row, mlp, and stereo only mlp.

 

[Todd Anderson]

That's true. My brain is moving slow today. I think that most systems allow presets.

I'm very intrigued by this idea of speakers sliding into multiple positions. There's gotta be a track system of some kind that could be retro-fitted for the purpose.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

It would be extra nice if I could afford and install Harman’s speaker-swapping mechanism (described in Section 2.6 here). Now falling back to earth...

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I'm starting to realize just how cram-packed this room will be. It's not any better than my current room, just longer to accommodate the 2nd row! I made slight adjustments—which may or may not translate into the real world—to row spacing and speaker-frontwall clearance. I allowed front and back rows to overlap about a half foot in their fully reclined positions (let me say that these seats are not at all comfortable fully reclined, so I don’t anticipate any real world clearance problems there). The adjusted SS&I parameters then yield the following seemingly great relationships:
C = (17 - 7 ) x 12in/ft = 120"
A = C / 1.75 = 68.6"
B = 1.08 x A = 74.1"

The results spread the mains further apart for a better viewing angle, but not far enough to clear a large screen (judged solely by line-of-sight from seat to screen on scaled drawing). So it looks like I'll have to abandon Wayne's formal SS&I Setup. No surprise, I expected as much coming in to this exercise--just had to prove it to myself. Final speaker locations will be determined by ear, though they won't perform at their peak potential. Only experimentation will tell.

Back to planning, which now shifts gears from fixed screen behind speakers, to a tensioned, pull-down AT screen in front of them. Let's see what the newly adjusted viewing distance suggests for screen size. Pushing the mains a foot closer to the front wall--I was able to stomach this after realizing that speaker-to-frontwall clearance meant wall to baffle, not wall to rear of cabinet--and locating the screen in front of them sets front-row viewing distance at roughly 6.5 - 7.0', already a sinking feeling. Using the screen size/distance calculator JStewart referenced in Post #28, yields a recommended screen size of only 48" .

Granted, viewing distance is subjective, but that isn't even in the ballpark for a big screen experience.
C = 120" (physical limitation)
A = 78.6" (relaxed requirement)
B= 84.9" (to be adjusted)

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

There are still a few options available before drastic measures are called for. The MLP obviously needs to be moved away from the front wall. One of the simplest methods is to reduce the seats’ fully-reclined footprint. If a shorter reclined length can’t be found, then it's possible to physically restrict reclined length by spacing the rows closer together. For example, my seats recline in three basic wall-hugger stages:

1. Footrest rotates from vertical to horizontal
2. Seatback, cushion and footrest extend
3. Extension continues until max prone position is reached.

More distance from the MLP to the front wall can be squeezed out of the room if the rows are spaced so the seats in back recline only to the point where their footrests touch the backs of the seats in front. I'll need to measure that when I get home. Another option would be to buy a pair of non-reclining seats for the back row.

My gut feeling says these options will not amount to much, as only a few inches (rather than a few feet) will be added to viewing distance. To make any sort of appreciable improvement, I'm afraid the 2nd row will need to be omitted. But one of the initial conditions of this design was the inclusion of a 2nd row. Now it looks like that requirement dictates not only compromised sound, but compromised video as well. And since my darling wife definitely wants me to enjoy my new room, I have a strong case to plead. She plans on spending movie time with her mother and sister in the upstairs loft, so I'm unsure why couldn't join them out there on days when social-hour is scheduled. It isn't logical to prioritize a dedicated layout for occasional non-enthusiast visitors over a several-hour-per-day hobbyist!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Still playing with numbers! The goal is to maximize viewing distance while maintaining listening ratios. This will tend to squash the seats toward one end of the room, and the stage at the other. IIRC, that's what TonyV suggested earlier. Here's a scenario which drastically reduces 2nd row clearance by swapping out recliners for fixed-backs. This sets MLP at approx 5.5ft off the back wall giving:
C = (17 - 5.5) = 11.5' = 138" ( fixed by MLP )
A = C / 1.75 = 78.9" ( maximized listening distance = maximized viewing distance)
B = 1.08 A = 85.2" (minimized separation for max wall clearance)

Results: 50 - 54" diagonal recommended for a 7.0 - 7.5' viewing distance. Even more drastic measures are needed!

.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

And here's the previously mentioned scenario which omits the 2nd row. MLP is now fixed at approximately 3ft off back wall:
C = (17 - 3) = 14' = 168" ( Fixed by MLP @3ft from back wall )
A = C / 1.75 = 96" ( maximized listening distance = maximized viewing distance) ==> Force A = 11.0' = 132" which is a much greater stretch than in Post #69
B = 1.08 A = 103.7" (to be adjusted)

Results: 70 - 75" diagonal recommended for a 10.0 - 10.5' viewing distance. Better, but still not quite a big screen experience. Immersion preferences are subjective, but would you sit 10' from a 96" - 110" screen? Many concessions have been made to reach this dual-purpose layout. Ideal speaker positioning, audience seating, surround sound configuration and more have all been compromised. It may be time to examine long-wall setup in detail.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

There's also a certain satisfaction for getting the most we can from the room we have.

Well said!

 

[JStewart]

but would you sit 10' from a 96" - 110" screen?

ABSOLUTELY YES.
My eyeballs are 9’10” from a 16:9 92” diagonal 80” wide screen. I would install 100” diagonal but for my limitations.
I’ll have to go take another look at the rtings calculator because 10.3ft with a 92” screen is a 36 degree viewing angle and THX recommendation.
IIRC you can go wider with CinemaScope and still be comfy. @thrillcat might maybe have an opinion. His is 100” wide at about the same distance.

Edit: Typo. Had originally posted 90" wide. Should have been 80". Corrected.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Many thanks for your feedback! It helps more than you know.

thrillcat kindly shared dimensions, before/after pics, and more in my Display vs. Projector thread. I’m impressed with the execution and results. It would be nice to hear from him again!