Target Curves

[Dtune]

Hi, could someone point to some saved target curves for Audiolense?

My skill with mouse and little dots drawing precise curves leaves something to be desired.

In the help file Bernt refers to various accepted Targets and Mitch does also in his various articles i.e. Harman curve, expert listener curve etc.

Surely there are solid well made templates (computer generated?) available to save a lot of guess work and drive consistency throughout the community??

Thanks!

 

[moedra]

I've found that a custom target, tailored to your measurement, often yields better results than any generic or pre-made target. This is especially true in the low end, where you may be dealing with noise below the range your speakers can produce. You'll get a clean step response simulation if you cut out the appropriate frequencies with the target. Also, there are benefits here in optimizing noise removal, customizing the phase mix, and even adjusting the correction procedure as well. If you are running XO, you can mess with the procedure designer along with the target to really dial in good correction.

Tip - maximize the target window so you don't have to deal with a tiny graph.

If you don't mind posting your measurement, I'll take a look at it with you. Targets are saved as files, so I can possibly help you make your target.

 

[Dtune]

That does seem to be the approach of many. I was approaching this as a shared learning experience particularly with new users. That way when Mitch or Bernt refer to a particular target curve we could plug it in and experience that curve for ourselves. Then using the designer we could tweak it to suit our particular setup. So a repository of sorts, maybe included in the software download itself.

If such a thing is not needed or wanted so-be-it.

For me as a new user it could help shorten the learning curve by using a known target - or one of four that are shown in the help file already.

 

[moedra]

That does seem to be the approach of many. I was approaching this as a shared learning experience particularly with new users. That way when Mitch or Bernt refer to a particular target curve we could plug it in and experience that curve for ourselves. Then using the designer we could tweak it to suit our particular setup. So a repository of sorts, maybe included in the software download itself.

If such a thing is not needed or wanted so-be-it.

For me as a new user it could help shorten the learning curve by using a known target - or one of four that are shown in the help file already.

I use this as a reference target for my iLoudMTM speakers at my desktop workstation. I have other targets, but this one is a good balance between working critically and listening for pleasure, so it is a good starting place. There are four of them in here, three of which have different cutoff frequencies to give you an idea of how I go about it. These are all different iterations of the target as I was working it out. The fourth is the original with no low end cut, where I started from. I used that one as the starting point and tailored the cutoff to the low end response. You can start with the raw target and design your own cutoff shape.

 

[Dtune]

Thanks for those Target curves and offer to help! Much appreciated.

Two full range mains plus 4 stereo (2+2) subs.

Here's my current setup. I'm trying to fill a 12 - 15 db hole around 50 hz without causing other issues. I have only one large tube trap in the room so that might need to be addressed. My left channel step response is not too good according to a friend helping me along with the process - I can understand impulse but not step too well. The attached step response is the worse case at 100 hz 2 octave crossover.. The step response improves with lower crossover values but the subs are less able to help fill the dip at 50 hz and some of the 4 sub impact are lost at lower crossover values during listening evaluation.

I have tried tweaking settings in the Correction procedure Designer too. Attached is the current settings. The small value of 1 ms at 24khz is key to having a natural high end response, again validated by listening to the resultant correction in HQPlayer.

I think I'll have to run the measurements again and change to physical setup since the front left sub seems to be the cause of left channel sub-optimal step response. I've tried all crossover frequencies and slopes within the range of 50 to 100. The Target curve I used early on created an issue with an attempt by the software to make corrections below 10hz. This is why I wanted to see other folks targets in my initial post. I think I've learned that the Target needs to follow the measured response somewhat or you'll loos a LOT of gain. With my initial Target Curve I was losing around 30 db of gain. With this current Target it is much better in that regard.

Thanks again.

 

[moedra]

Ultimately, I think that the shape of your target should reflect your intended purpose. If you work on music a lot, like I do, I believe that a linear or near-linear response is best because accuracy to the source signal is important. If you are listening for pleasure, you can deviate from that because subjectivity plays a role in how you want to hear the sound.

If you don't want to lose gain, keep the max correction boost low. I see you have it at 6dB, which is usually alright. I have mine at 8dB right now, and it is still fine. I lose gain yes, but it's alright since I have a preamp and powered studio speakers. Gain isn't an issue for me at all.

What is an issue goes back to the shape of the target and the parameters in the CPD. You have to play with it, and sometimes try things you may not think will work.

Your step response looks odd to me. It should follow the step target as closely as possible. The step target is defined by the frequency target in the target designer. You can look at the step target using the corresponding radio button. I attached a screenshot of my simulated step response so you can see what it's supposed to look like. Remember, this is from my iLoud MTM speakers on my desktop rig. Getting it this refined took a little elbow grease, but I have a firm grasp on how I did it. Yours will be different, but if you'd like help with it, just send me your measurement file.

I have provided my studio reference target for Audiolense as well. Obviously you will need to dial in the slope of your bass response and refine it over some iterations to get it like mine there in the picture, but the template will get you started. This one is more linear than the previous one I gave you, which makes it sound more open and airy in the top. It's very nice for the sake of hearing everything accurately. The other (hauscurve) target makes warmer sounding filters, but it's slightly more rounded off in the top. That makes it easier for extended listening, but if I were mastering some music with the hauscurve, I'd probably make the master too bright.

 

[Dtune]

Yes I have already been through a few iterations and the results have improved. Very counterintuitive but a 4 octave crossover slope improved step response. I thought I had attached my measurement file. I'll do so again.

Thanks.

 

[moedra]

Yes I have already been through a few iterations and the results have improved. Very counterintuitive but a 4 octave crossover slope improved step response. I thought I had attached my measurement file. I'll do so again.

Thanks.

Still no file. You may need to zip it up first, like I did.

 

[Dtune]

Zipped now, see if that works.

 

[moedra]

After about ten minutes of tweaking the target and the CPD I got this. The target is mixed phase. 100% low, 18% high. Were you able to get something similar?

 

[Dtune]

Nope That's amazing! Could you share the CPD settings and target? I knew about mixed phase targets but didn't really know how to configure them.

 

[moedra]

Nope That's amazing! Could you share the CPD settings and target? I knew about mixed phase targets but didn't really know how to configure them.

I figured that since your low end was kind of wonky that minimum phase in the low end would help, and I left the top mostly linear. You can mess with that based on what this sounds like.

 

[Dtune]

Well I can't thank you enough. I can't say I fully understand this. Mitch has said in some posts to use a small time value (1-2ms) in CPD frequency correction when doing full (as opposed to partial) corrections so low values for high frequency correction was where I was headed. Just trying a few things out around your recommended settings I found the HF setting also changes low frequency response. Always, I will massage the TC to get the correct tonal balance as I have a largely untreated room I think compared to yours.

Thanks again, you have definitely been a huge help shortening the rather large learning curve in AL

 

[moedra]

Well I can't thank you enough. I can't say I fully understand this. Mitch has said in some posts to use a small time value (1-2ms) in CPD frequency correction when doing full (as opposed to partial) corrections so low values for high frequency correction was where I was headed. Just trying a few things out around your recommended settings I found the HF setting also changes low frequency response. Always, I will massage the TC to get the correct tonal balance as I have a largely untreated room I think compared to yours.

Thanks again, you have definitely been a huge help shortening the rather large learning curve in AL

You're welcome. What do those settings sound like to you?

I use a studio linear target because a studio space is usually the context I am listening in. You may want to change the target shape, but the key is to get the low end roll off right so that the step response looks clean.

By the way, you mean cycles, right? 1-2 milliseconds would require a much larger number of cycles.

 

[Dtune]

The sound is pretty transformative compared to listening without audiolense. I was certainly prepared for an improvement in the bass. What I wasn't prepared for was how good the correction sounds across the entire bandwidth. At one time I had a surround sound preamp with Audyssey built in. Recently I tried minidsp SHD preamp with dirac trying to see if I could live with this generation of room correction. I have always liked room correction in the bass frequencies but have limited correction above 200hz because I had found it messed with the soundstage and sounded artificial and congested. Audiolense is the real deal to my ears.

Thanks again for setting me on the right path.

 

[juicehifi]

You're welcome. What do those settings sound like to you?

I use a studio linear target because a studio space is usually the context I am listening in. You may want to change the target shape, but the key is to get the low end roll off right so that the step response looks clean.

By the way, you mean cycles, right? 1-2 milliseconds would require a much larger number of cycles.

Your target is very close to my preference … in my best room.

 

[Dtune]

My room is made of logs and sounds very different than when I was in a drywall lined room. Also dimensions are generous. Sounds great. I actually adopted your last curve with a touch more rolloff at the top end. It's nice to be able to change the presentation with just a couple adjustments.

 

[moedra]

Your target is very close to my preference … in my best room.

My studio reference target is great for being critical, and I do a lot of mastering so it's a perfect balance for me. The hauscurve is nice with a softer top and warm presentation for casual listening sessions.
I love Audiolense, by the way. Thanks so much for making it what it is.

 

[Cornelis Huizinga]

Hi Moedra, This thread is particularly educational for me. I thought I was doing reasonably well with my targets, but when I started simulating with your HP30 target, I suddenly had a much better step response. I always thought that you should follow the measurement as closely as possible. Your curve is simply much steeper, but this results in a better step response. I also didn't understand the mixed phase (still don't by the way . I assumed that the mixed phases together had to be 100%, so something like 60% bass and 40% top. Is it very rude that I send you my measurement file and set-up (3-way, with 2 subs) so that you can look at it and see possible improvements?

 

[moedra]

Hi Moedra, This thread is particularly educational for me. I thought I was doing reasonably well with my targets, but when I started simulating with your HP30 target, I suddenly had a much better step response. I always thought that you should follow the measurement as closely as possible. Your curve is simply much steeper, but this results in a better step response. I also didn't understand the mixed phase (still don't by the way . I assumed that the mixed phases together had to be 100%, so something like 60% bass and 40% top. Is it very rude that I send you my measurement file and set-up (3-way, with 2 subs) so that you can look at it and see possible improvements?

I don't mind looking at it when I have some time.
Mixed phase just does what the windowing controls do in the CPD. Low gets one value and high gets another (or the same) value. If they are the same, you basically just have a mixed phase filter. But Audiolense lets you offset the balance so that the filter can have a blend not only between phase types but also between the lows and highs.

The two mixed phase values, from what I can see, are independent of one another and govern their own ranges. They do not need to equal 100% combined. For example, 100% low and 100% high simply equals a minimum phase filter.

I like to lean the low end toward min phase when the room itself isn't under all that much control. It helps tighten the lows. If the room is more naturally under control, I'd say that you can lean more toward linear phase in the lows. I usually dial in the high value to taste. It tends to sound better to me when I leave the highs mostly linear. I don't think I ever went over 20% min phase in the highs once I figured out what I was doing. I've done a lot of trial and error with Audiolense over the last year.

 

[Cornelis Huizinga]

I would really appreciate it if you would look at my measurement if you have time.

I have now used your HP40 curve for my attic speakers and I must say I have never heard them so good. If all goes well, the measurement, a screenshot of the CPD and the speaker setup are in the zip file. I think I and probably other Al users can learn a lot from your expertise

 

[moedra]

I would really appreciate it if you would look at my measurement if you have time.

I have now used your HP40 curve for my attic speakers and I must say I have never heard them so good. If all goes well, the measurement, a screenshot of the CPD and the speaker setup are in the zip file. I think I and probably other Al users can learn a lot from your expertise

I'm not sure what results you've been getting yourself, but I had a chance to look around this morning and this is what I got. I'm not sure why the filter won't cut the sub lows out (below 10Hz at least) and there is an odd L/R imbalance around 115Hz that won't resolve, but otherwise it's looking alright to me. I haven't seen too many setups like this, so for me it's been educational as well. Thanks for sharing.

Update:
If you tick the minimum phase crossover button in the CPD, you'll get the result pictured in the attached screenshot. The simulated response looks a little better below 10Hz, which has an effect on the step simulation. Whether you can actually hear a difference or not is something you will have to test.

 

[Dtune]

Well, this thread is proving to be educational, but not exactly in the way I originally intended. Thanks to Moedra I have a more coherent system.

If I only learned only one thing, it's that all settings are interdependent. Don't be afraid to experiment, analyze, listen, try again.

Cornelis: try extending CPD window to 5 HZ from 10 HZ. It led to better controlled low frequency and step response for me with my measurements. It seems to me that if you have data below 10 hz you need to tell AL what to do with that data. If it doesn't help you can always go back to the original settings. AL makes it quick and easy to simulate any variables as you wish - even if you have an incomplete understanding what those changes mean!!!

Happy Listening.

 

[Cornelis Huizinga]

I'm not sure what results you've been getting yourself, but I had a chance to look around this morning and this is what I got. I'm not sure why the filter won't cut the sub lows out (below 10Hz at least) and there is an odd L/R imbalance around 115Hz that won't resolve, but otherwise it's looking alright to me. I haven't seen too many setups like this, so for me it's been educational as well. Thanks for sharing.

Update:
If you tick the minimum phase crossover button in the CPD, you'll get the result pictured in the attached screenshot. The simulated response looks a little better below 10Hz, which has an effect on the step simulation. Whether you can actually hear a difference or not is something you will have to test.

Thank you very much for the effort you took to help me. This morning I played music for an hour with your settings. Your target curve is really nice to listen to. Voices sound very natural. This thread encourages me to experiment again with different settings, even though I don't always understand how it works.

 

[Cornelis Huizinga]

Well, this thread is proving to be educational, but not exactly in the way I originally intended. Thanks to Moedra I have a more coherent system.

If I only learned only one thing, it's that all settings are interdependent. Don't be afraid to experiment, analyze, listen, try again.

Cornelis: try extending CPD window to 5 HZ from 10 HZ. It led to better controlled low frequency and step response for me with my measurements. It seems to me that if you have data below 10 hz you need to tell AL what to do with that data. If it doesn't help you can always go back to the original settings. AL makes it quick and easy to simulate any variables as you wish - even if you have an incomplete understanding what those changes mean!!!

Happy Listening.

I set the setting to 5 Hz, but this did not affect the step response much. Still, I'm happy with your tip, because I didn't know you could change this setting. Thanks to all the instructions, I have come one step further. The sound is now really very good (I think) for a typical Dutch living room (4 meters by 10 meters) without acoustic treatment