What is your Reference?

[Matthew J Poes]

Go to New Orleans and visit all those jazz bars, it really helps tune your ears while having fun!

I've been three times myself and my parents have gone to New Orleans every year for the last 20 years or so. They go to Jazz fest, but have easily hit every major club in New Orleans.

I have to give my parents credit, if not for them, I wouldn't have had the experiences around live music that I have had. I've been to great live musical events in New York City, my home town, New Orleans, etc. In fact, in my home time there was an old house converted into a jazz bar. I used to go there every week for years to listen to the house band, who would bring in local musicans to sit in. Talk about a great jazz education.

 

[DanDan]

I'm lucky enough to have done a lot of work with The Plant Studios in Sausalito before they shut down. I have recorded my guitar through my effects into my amps in the same room where countless classics were recorded (Rumors, The Black Album, Before These Crowded Streets, and hundreds more).

My band's recordings may not have been perfect, sonic masterpieces, but I know exactly how they should sound on the system where they were recorded, mixed, and mastered.

Unfortunately, most people don't have such a reference.

Aaaaaah. I went there with my ShowReel, on high quality Cassette! in the 90's. I can distinctly remember hearing my own references. It was the best sounding Studio Monitoring, CR, I have ever heard. I help Dirac Live with some Beta. I have used it constantly for Mixing and Mastering since I discovered it years ago. I have never seen a bug, crash, or glitch. Unfortunately the Minidsp version cannot bypass the inter channel speaker distance offset. I really hope they fix that in V2 because at the moment it is impossible to integrate minidsp hardware into a Pro working scenario. DD

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I'm lucky to live where there are 2 excellent venues, my old school has a SOTA concert hall that I frequent for classical and jazz.

Replete with a variable acoustic cloud above the main stage. There are also small recitals rooms where you sit within feet of the players/instruments.
The other is the Straz Center. Here's our audio club getting a private demo of the Florida orchestra

Straz Fl Orch

• AJ Soundfield
• Jan 9, 2019

SAS @ Straz

Excellent acoustics, a bit less intimate.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I'm lucky to live where there are 2 excellent venues, my old school has a SOTA concert hall that I frequent for classical and jazz.

Replete with a variable acoustic cloud above the main stage. There are also small recitals rooms where you sit within feet of the players/instruments.
The other is the Straz Center. Here's our audio club getting a private demo of the Florida orchestra

Straz Fl Orch

• AJ Soundfield
• Jan 9, 2019

SAS @ Straz

Excellent acoustics, a bit less intimate.

I need to come visit!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Aaaaaah. I went there with my ShowReel, on high quality Cassette! in the 90's. I can distinctly remember hearing my own references. It was the best sounding Studio Monitoring, CR, I have ever heard. I help Dirac Live with some Beta. I have used it constantly for Mixing and Mastering since I discovered it years ago. I have never seen a bug, crash, or glitch. Unfortunately the Minidsp version cannot bypass the inter channel speaker distance offset. I really hope they fix that in V2 because at the moment it is impossible to integrate minidsp hardware into a Pro working scenario. DD

We are big DIRAC users around these parts.

I too was a beta tester and have been using it on and off ever since. It’s still the best room correction I’ve used both subjectively and objectively. The most I can say is that with really good speakers and subs optimally set up with manual eq, the difference Dirac makes can be subtle to non-existent. But the sad thing is, it can equal the optimized manual approach in a lot less time.

 

[ddude003]

Played in a few garage bands in the early days... Had Rhodes, Hammond, Yamaha, Roland, Leslie, Marshall, Altec Lansing, McIntosh and Fender products... Been to many various venues up and down the west coast from small bars and clubs to the Hollywood Bowl, Pacific and Universal Amphitheaters... Also worked with several Animation, Special Effects, Post Production, Foley and Music Recording Studios on the west coast...

Drums, Cymbals, Organ, Piano, Saxophone, Acoustic Guitar and the Female Voice are points of reference for me...

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I need to come visit!

Members of both orchestras will be playing poolside at the Expo. C'mon down ;-).
I'm trying to convince Sonnie to attend. May have to explain why there are no banjos though...

 

[Tony V.]

Nothing better than a proper concert venue for Orchestra or Jazz this is one of our venues in Edmonton, A tribute to Prince (I was there and it was so good) we have our own symphony orchestra and this is their home building.

 

[bkeeler10]

This is a fascinating discussion. Going back to some of the earlier points made, I don't go to a lot of live events, but I will agree that a live concert well-recorded on disc beats the live experience in terms of sound quality. So many concerts around my area are done in spaces with acoustics not designed for such, and the result can be pretty bad. And then, it seems that production crews think everyone wants to be killed by the bass. I was at a Celtic Woman concert a couple summers ago, and the bass was so incredibly overwhelming at times that it strongly masked the vocal performances, which weren't well represented themselves. And this is Celtic Woman, not some pop or metal band. I was shocked and disappointed at how poorly it was done. The acoustics of the space were partly to blame for sure, but undoubtedly it could have been better. All the same, I won't be going back to that venue for a concert again!

I wish I could say I had a really strong point of reference. I do have a handful of tracks and movie clips I am fairly familiar with, which can help me in evaluating a new system. But again, I don't go to a lot of live events. Although it sounds like, based on the experiences shared here, a live event is at least as likely to be a poor reference as it is to be a good reference.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

This is a fascinating discussion. Going back to some of the earlier points made, I don't go to a lot of live events, but I will agree that a live concert well-recorded on disc beats the live experience in terms of sound quality. So many concerts around my area are done in spaces with acoustics not designed for such, and the result can be pretty bad.

I was just about to add that I don't think that any live venue that requires amplification can be considered a reference. Some of them can sound pretty [expletive] amazing, but the moment you put microphones and amplification into the mix, you're sacrificing quality. There must always be a compromise between using the best microphone/eq combination and the possibility of feedback, unwanted bleed, etc.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Members of both orchestras will be playing poolside at the Expo. C'mon down ;-).
I'm trying to convince Sonnie to attend. May have to explain why there are no banjos though...

Very cool.

Remind me which sort of Florida you are in? We typically have gone to the Miami area but flew into Tampa last year and stayed in Clearwater. We really loved the area, though maybe not all the people. We want to go back, it’s a fairly cheap place to vacation and get nice beaches.

 

[bkeeler10]

I was just about to add that I don't think that any live venue that requires amplification can be considered a reference. Some of them can sound pretty [expletive] amazing, but the moment you put microphones and amplification into the mix, you're sacrificing quality. There must always be a compromise between using the best microphone/eq combination and the possibility of feedback, unwanted bleed, etc.

Yep, and if there's electronic reinforcement, you're at the whim of the guy doing the mixing and levels and EQ and such. I need to go to shows at small venues that are mostly acoustic in nature, which would probably help establish a better reference for me. It's just expensive to go to shows. I spent all my money on the rig at home

 

[Mike-48]

Reference? I use a few references:

• Some recordings I've made of musicians who are also good friends. Of course, those recordings still are filtered through the mics used, but I know what EQ was used (almost none) and what the recording venue sounded like and what their voices sound like
  
• Commercial recordings I've heard many times and I think are good -- usually on BIS or other small labels.
  
• Having been to many hundreds, perhaps over a thousand, live unamplified (classical) concerts, I have a good idea of (e.g.) what an English horn sounds like and how it differs from an oboe or bassoon. That helps me judge timbre reproduction, the most important test to me
  
• Finally, I have a library of about 3,500 discs. It is extremely helpful to listen to many recordings through a system to take its measure.

On the subject of room correction, I'm now using an Anthem STR preamp with ARC, and it gives better results quickly than I was ever able to achieve by hand slowly.

 

[Kevin G]

This issue is HUGE! There must a be an industry standard out there for recording and playback. I wish the movie studios would include at least a SPL per channel reference track in each movie. I really hate wondering if the movie sound track is being played correctly. Everything simply sounds basically okay, but is it right? I have saved many "demo trailers" to a USB stick and played them through my system in a desparate attempt to get a proper tuning, but just not sure it is correct. Do to my being completely novice in the sound space I may be thinking wrong if I said the closest we could get to playing back the original sound is to EQ each speaker nearly flat then EQ and treat the room. Then it would be up to the speakers, gear and media to provide the correct sound. But, who knows what is right? Go to the movie theater - is that correct? Hmmmm - maybe not. IMO, the theater is just too loud.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

On the subject of room correction, I'm now using an Anthem STR preamp with ARC, and it gives better results quickly than I was ever able to achieve by hand slowly.

That's a really bad sign...unless band limited to <500hz +/-.
But if its sounds better to you, all that matters.

cheers

 

[AJ Soundfield]

There must a be an industry standard out there for recording and playback.

Unfortunately there is only the Circle of Confusion Dr. Toole speaks of.

I may be thinking wrong if I said the closest we could get to playing back the original sound is to EQ each speaker nearly flat then EQ and treat the room.

For movies that should result in something you like, rather than what it is "supposed" to sound like, undetermined per the above.. Your speakers shouldn't need much EQ, if any.
Your room/speaker LF interaction, should.

cheers

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I was just about to add that I don't think that any live venue that requires amplification can be considered a reference.

Look up Lexicon LARES by David Griesinger.

 

[DanDan]

Witchdoctor, yup. I play drums and I know how they sound from all perspectives. Personally I use vocals. The male voice can get down to 60-70 Hz.
But Drums are everything I agree. Strangely though, they are let's face it, pretty horrible in reality. I much prefer the sound of them through a PA, manipulated extensively.
Same playing them, wow, the feeling of power when assisted by a clean live mix......

 

[Marcus DiBenedetto]

Fascinating conversation. Sorry I am late to the party. There is so much that goes in to sound reproduction in our homes that it becomes intimidating and overwhelming. I think that most people (audiophile or not) intuitively know that a speaker cannot exactly reproduce the sound of an instrument. There are many classical violin, cello and double bass musicians who are loaned instruments that are hundreds of years old. These instruments are highly coveted for their sound. How is it possible for a speaker to reproduce that sound? Well, it's not possible (no matter how many 1s and 0s are used). But, a consumer does want to get as close as possible to "that" sound within budget constraints. There is so much more that contributes to success or failure. The venue, the artists, the instruments, the microphones, the recording equipment, and, of course, the sound engineer.

On a happier note, technology in all things audiophile has come a long way (over my 69 years). I tried my best to get the best sound I could afford. I like how I have my system "dialed in". At this point, my goal is to sit back and enjoy my many hundreds of titles (before my hearing goes away).

Marcus
Las Vegas, NV