Are all turntables alike?

[Grayson Dere]

Being fair across the cartridges I've heard I would say the 2M Blue and Rega Carbon are both on the entry side of vinyl playback. This does not mean they sound bad!

Here is a fun side-by-side of the 2M Red and Carbon for comparison...different turntable..but still an interesting video. Note that the 2M Blue is seen as superior to the 2M Red by many.

 

[Asere]

Being fair across the cartridges I've heard I would say the 2M Blue and Rega Carbon are both on the entry side of vinyl playback. This does not mean they sound bad!

Here is a fun side-by-side of the 2M Red and Carbon for comparison...different turntable..but still an interesting video. Note that the 2M Blue is seen as superior to the 2M Red by many.

It's funny you shared the link to compare. I was watching it 5 minutes ago before you mentioned it. Thanks.
I couldn't really tell the difference from the two with earbuds on and no earbuds.

 

[Grayson Dere]

Sometimes it is difficult to hear differences..I find it helpful to concentrate on a single instrument and compare them. You may notice differences in the attack/decay and overall dynamic range of said instrument.

 

[Asere]

Sometimes it is difficult to hear differences..I find it helpful to concentrate on a single instrument and compare them. You may notice differences in the attack/decay and overall dynamic range of said instrument.

Yes I'll try that.
Also the Rega Pl2 goes for $675 retail and the PL1 $499. If I get the PL2 from the seller at Audiogon i'm actually getting the PL2 for the price of a PL1.

 

[Grayson Dere]

Yes I'll try that.
Also the Rega Pl2 goes for $675 retail and the PL1 $499. If I get the PL2 from the seller at Audiogon i'm actually getting the PL2 for the price of a PL1.

And this is how the exciting vinyl journey starts....a few years ago I was in the market for a Rega P3 and after waiting and scouring Audiogon I ended up with an Origin Live Aurora : ) More money, I know, but you'll start reading and demo'ing and your tastes will change.

 

[Asere]

And this is how the exciting vinyl journey starts....a few years ago I was in the market for a Rega P3 and after waiting and scouring Audiogon I ended up with an Origin Live Aurora : ) More money, I know, but you'll start reading and demo'ing and your tastes will change.

Tell me about it decisions, decisions lol. I'm going to just keep reading and keep on looking. Eventually I'll decide on something haha.

 

[Grayson Dere]

Tell me about it decisions, decisions lol. I'm going to just keep reading and keep on looking. Eventually I'll decide on something haha.

Keep on educating yourself..it's as fun as the actual purchasing : ) Let us all know what you end up with!

 

[travis gidcumb]

I’m really wanting to get into vinyl. I’m thinking Pro-Ject debut carbon to go with my Elac B6’s and Emotiva A-100. What does everyone think?

 

[Asere]

Sometimes it is difficult to hear differences..I find it helpful to concentrate on a single instrument and compare them. You may notice differences in the attack/decay and overall dynamic range of said instrument.

What's interesting I had my two sons and wife listen to the video and the three voted for the red.
They said it was clearer.

 

[Asere]

Anyone have any experience with Music Hall? They seem to have good reviews but their cartridge seems cheap.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Oh okay. I'm not aware of a carbon cart being made by Ortofon, but if you were interested in pursuing that route from other manufacturers the carbon material would more than likely be that for the body construction. Yes, there will be audible differences from different body materials because of physical resonant properties. In fact, the Grado Statement is completely made out of wood: https://www.needledoctor.com/Grado-Statement-V2-Woodbody-m

Here is a great resource for reading more about cartridge companies and sound quality (scroll down for the comparisons):
https://www.originlive.com/hi-fi/cartridges-mc-mm/

I have the Grado Reference Woodbody V1. I settled on it after going through a lot of different cartridges of various designs. I really liked the Grado.

Ps I wouldn’t be nervous about the U Turns, they are really good for the money. I think they are basically evolutions of the Rega design and are better than the cheapest models. They have a better motor and controller. I think you really have to move up to a P3 or better to really get something better. I talked extensively with U turn about their tables both by email and at AXPONA. I listened to them quite a bit and was able to look at them against the Regas on display in direct comparison. I really walked away impressed.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

No their arms are aluminum.

Most arms are not CF, even highly rated ones. It’s a great material to make arms from but I wouldn’t say it’s a requirement for good sound. Aluminum is a great material to make arms from too. Far more important will be the quality of the cartridge you get.

Just to note on this as I'm reading through the thread (and it could very well have already been addressed), but ProJect has the Debut Carbon series that does have a carbon tonearm. I just picked one up the other night.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

I've recommended U-Turn to many folks looking to "get back into vinyl". Oddly enough, I've never actually heard one, but the response is usually "my old records never sounded this good."

I have two different ProJect tables, an RM 1.3 with a Sumiko Pearl and a Debut Carbon with the Ortofon 2M Red. The Red seems more clear, and has a deeper soundstage, but the Pearl has a much fuller sound, especially in the low end.

I just picked up the Debut Carbon the other night, and at first listen I liked the 2M Red. Last night, with some more listening, I still enjoy it, but I missed the low end.

I'm probably going to be ordering a Hana EL cartridge in the very near future.

To the point in the second comment about not understanding the resurgence, I think the vast majority of folks (at least in my general age range) when CD debuted, didn't have a high quality turntable. The quality found in today's $500 turntables would have been cost-prohibitive to many back then. There are definitely some very good turntables in the $500 range today that will blow what you had back in 1985 out of the water. I would also agree with the opinion that nothing below $400/500 is worth looking at.

Also, former B&O owner, Soundsmith is the only company still making carts compatible with their tables, and they are not cheap. But they do sound good.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Just to note on this as I'm reading through the thread (and it could very well have already been addressed), but ProJect has the Debut Carbon series that does have a carbon tonearm. I just picked one up the other night.

I was specifically talking about U-Turn. That it doesn’t have a CF arm. I knew that Project did. That’s been their selling point.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

I was specifically talking about U-Turn. That it doesn’t have a CF arm. I knew that Project did. That’s been their selling point.

Gotcha. I re-read the post, could've probably been read either way. I read it wrong.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Gotcha. I re-read the post, could've probably been read either way. I read it wrong.

Sorry for the confusion.

I was just trying to point out that the U-Turn comes off as more basic but is a good value. I’m stull amazed how cheap the tables are. For someone just starting out, it’s a good place to start.

When I played with the arm on their table, which they make themselves, I was impressed with the apparent tolerances and bearing quality. I have a modified Rega and it’s bearings are nothing great. Certainly adequate but I was always unimpressed by the build quality. It sounds and works fine so I’ve left it.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

I've thought about ordering a U-Turn table myself. I don't need it, but I'd like a good chance to hear one, and they look great.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I've thought about ordering a U-Turn table myself. I don't need it, but I'd like a good chance to hear one, and they look great.

Are there any HiFi shows near you that they may be attending? I hope to catch up with them at AXPONA this year. I spent time last year but was pulled away to meet with Paul Barton and forgot to go back and ask about reviews.

 

[Grayson Dere]

I have the Grado Reference Woodbody V1. I settled on it after going through a lot of different cartridges of various designs. I really liked the Grado.

Ps I wouldn’t be nervous about the U Turns, they are really good for the money. I think they are basically evolutions of the Rega design and are better than the cheapest models. They have a better motor and controller. I think you really have to move up to a P3 or better to really get something better. I talked extensively with U turn about their tables both by email and at AXPONA. I listened to them quite a bit and was able to look at them against the Regas on display in direct comparison. I really walked away impressed.

Thank you for your thoughts on the UTurn, Matthew. It's just my own ignorance that gets in the way usually : P
The dealers I have in my area only sell certain brands, of course, and it makes me biased sometimes.

Regarding the Grado woodbody cartridges, would you say for the money they're very hard to beat? ie: you would have to spend a lot more for a better sounding cart? I've been interested in listening to one but no one in my area carries the brand.

 

[Asere]

I have the Grado Reference Woodbody V1. I settled on it after going through a lot of different cartridges of various designs. I really liked the Grado.

Ps I wouldn’t be nervous about the U Turns, they are really good for the money. I think they are basically evolutions of the Rega design and are better than the cheapest models. They have a better motor and controller. I think you really have to move up to a P3 or better to really get something better. I talked extensively with U turn about their tables both by email and at AXPONA. I listened to them quite a bit and was able to look at them against the Regas on display in direct comparison. I really walked away impressed.

If Uturn is better then the Rega 1 and 2 that says a lot about Uturns quality.
What's better though MDF, alloy or acrylic plater?
Uturn claims the acrylic is better then the MDF but other companies claim alloy is better.

 

[Asere]

My wife has a record from 1958 and it says play with stereo pick up only. What does this mean? Is the speed 78?

 

[Grayson Dere]

My wife has a record from 1958 and it says play with stereo pick up only. What does this mean? Is the speed 78?

That's a very good question. Do you happen to have a picture of the record's slip cover? Sometimes there's more info on playing requirements on the backside of the cover and sometimes on the record label.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

If Uturn is better then the Rega 1 and 2 that says a lot about Uturns quality.
What's better though MDF, alloy or acrylic plater?
Uturn claims the acrylic is better then the MDF but other companies claim alloy is better.

I think it’s less about a specific material and more about how it’s used. Probably the best is a composite. What’s most important is that it has good mass, good dimensional stability, and can be precision cut. My opinion is that this rules out MDF and acrylic would be better. However MDF would be less resonant. It’s better damped.

My own table has a giant steel platter with urethane damping slugs, a wool felt mat, an acrylic mat, and a leather mat. That makes four layers with different acoustic impedances.

But again, at the entry level turntable point I wouldn’t worry as much because they aren’t taking as many steps to optimize the platter. As such they all have pluses and minuses. I think in this price point the speed stability and cartridge quality is probably the biggest SQ defining factor.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

My wife has a record from 1958 and it says play with stereo pick up only. What does this mean? Is the speed 78?

78’s were Mono.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Thank you for your thoughts on the UTurn, Matthew. It's just my own ignorance that gets in the way usually : P
The dealers I have in my area only sell certain brands, of course, and it makes me biased sometimes.

Regarding the Grado woodbody cartridges, would you say for the money they're very hard to beat? ie: you would have to spend a lot more for a better sounding cart? I've been interested in listening to one but no one in my area carries the brand.

It’s not a problem. I was dismissive myself. How could anyway sell an American made table or any quality for that cheap!

I have a couple low output MC cartridges, a Shure V15mk.., a $150 Ortofon whose model I forget, and then the cartridges I mentioned owning in the past. The Grado doesn’t sound better than the best MC’s, just different. It has weightier bass and smoother highs. It seemed more forgiving of bad recordings and surface noise was less apparent. The MC’s seemed more revealing, tighter sound, brighter, better defined sound stage. I just found them picky and sometimes irritating.

Now on the other hand i have a client with a cost no object rig and I think his MC sounds amazing. It never fatigues. My guess has always been that you may need to spend big money on an MC to get that magic without downsides. Since I can’t justify that, I stuck with the Grado.

Of course since I bought the Grado a lot of new MM’s have come out that may be better. I haven’t done a great job keeping up on the sound of all the new stuff. If someone I know has one, I might borrow it or listen at his place. That’s kind of it. As much as I like my records, I’m not too interested in reviewing cartridges.