Are all turntables alike?

[Asere]

I had ordered the cheap Pyle pp999 and it arrived today. More like a listen and if no change return kinda thing. I wanted to start out cheap it's only $14.
I listened but no difference from my receiver phono.
I guess because it's a cheap amp. What im afraid of doing is buying a more expensive one like $300 and experience the same.

 

[Asere]

Your welcome... I would encourage you to learn about the concept of Gain Structure in general and especially as it relates to Phono Cartridge to Phono Stage PreAmps and again from PreAmps to Amplifiers... This is one of the areas where a little knowledge can improve the synergy or AV NIRVANA between the components of a system...

PS - The Project Tube box DS looks like the nicest and most flexible of the four choices... And because build quality and Tubes... ;^)
PPSS - Oops, my bad, it looks like the Schiit mani has gain management switches after all...

Yes I need to read up on all this. With the Vincent Pho 8 not having gain management settings is that not a good thing? That may be simpler for me. What limitations can someone have without gain management?

 

[ddude003]

Yes I need to read up on all this. With the Vincent Pho 8 not having gain management settings is that not a good thing? That may be simpler for me. What limitations can someone have without gain management?

The limitation is a mismatch with the Phono Cartridge to the PreAmp because of too little or too much gain you will end up with compromised sound... Poor dynamics and soundstage to outright noise, distortion and eventual clipping... I would expect a good Solid State Phono Stage to allow the perfect match between Phono Cartridge and PreAmp clean crisp straight thru wire so to speak... A Tubed Phono Stage would shape the sound and sweeten it up a bit, depending the the tubes you put in it... Everything from thick and slow and sweet to bubble and sparkle by rolling in different tubes... This can be a lot of fun or disappointment depending on your point of view while searching for your personal sound... The sound that connects you to your music and AV NIRVANA...

 

[Asere]

The limitation is a mismatch with the Phono Cartridge to the PreAmp because of too little or too much gain you will end up with compromised sound... Poor dynamics and soundstage to outright noise, distortion and eventual clipping... I would expect a good Solid State Phono Stage to allow the perfect match between Phono Cartridge and PreAmp clean crisp straight thru wire so to speak... A Tubed Phono Stage would shape the sound and sweeten it up a bit, depending the the tubes you put in it... Everything from thick and slow and sweet to bubble and sparkle by rolling in different tubes... This can be a lot of fun or disappointment depending on your point of view while searching for your personal sound... The sound that connects you to your music and AV NIRVANA...

Apart from clarity isn't raising the volume on the receiver the same as adding dB on the preamp?

 

[ddude003]

Apart from clarity isn't raising the volume on the receiver the same as adding dB on the preamp?

I am not exactly sure what you are asking here... Gain and Volume are not the same thing...
Gain controls the voltage amplification of the circuit. Volume control reduces the overall signal level, when turned up all the way, it simply acts as a wire.

Remember that the Phone Stage is a PreAmp and the Receiver/AVR is a source (radio for instance) or source in (aux in for instance) as well as a PreAmp and Amplifier... The Volume on the Receiver would be an Attenuator on its internal PreAmp signal path... Again, there are two PreAmps in this total signal path... One is in the Phone Stage and the other is in the Receiver...

The short of it is that you want to Voltage Match the Phono Cartridge to the Phono Preamp, the Phono Preamp to the Receiver Preamp and Receiver and in-turn the Receiver Amplifier..

 

[Asere]

I am not exactly sure what you are asking here... Gain and Volume are not the same thing...
Gain controls the voltage amplification of the circuit. Volume control reduces the overall signal level, when turned up all the way, it simply acts as a wire.

Remember that the Phone Stage is a PreAmp and the Receiver/AVR is a source (radio for instance) or source in (aux in for instance) as well as a PreAmp and Amplifier... The Volume on the Receiver would be an Attenuator on its internal PreAmp signal path... Again, there are two PreAmps in this total signal path... One is in the Phone Stage and the other is in the Receiver...

The short of it is that you want to Voltage Match the Phono Cartridge to the Phono Preamp, the Phono Preamp to the Receiver Preamp and Receiver and in-turn the Receiver Amplifier..

Yes that was what I was asking. If gain and volume was about the same simply because I figured if you increase the gain db why bother with a preamp and why not increase the receiver volume.
What you just mentioned cleared it though.
I'm leaning towards the schiit mani because the gain control seems simple enough. The company told me most of the time 42db works well and that's how it already comes. I can always change it of course.
Now how do you know what's close to matching the voltage on the phono cartridge?

 

[ddude003]

Yes that was what I was asking. If gain and volume was about the same simply because I figured if you increase the gain db why bother with a preamp and why not increase the receiver volume.
What you just mentioned cleared it though.
I'm leaning towards the schiit mani because the gain control seems simple enough. The company told me most of the time 42db works well and that's how it already comes. I can always change it of course.
Now how do you know what's close to matching the voltage on the phono cartridge?

Read the specs/docs that come with the Phono Cartridge and the specs/docs that come with the Schiit Mani and Do The Math...

 

[Asere]

Read the specs/docs that come with the Phono Cartridge and the specs/docs that come with the Schiit Mani and Do The Math...

The specs for the 2M blue is recommended load capacitance - 150-300 pF. The Schiit has no info on what voltage matches. Maybe the out of box 42dB. I emailed Schiit and am waiting to hear from them.

 

[ddude003]

From the Ortofon website... Is this your cartridge?
https://www.ortofon.com/ortofon-2m-blue-p-333

 

[Asere]

From the Ortofon website... Is this your cartridge?
https://www.ortofon.com/ortofon-2m-blue-p-333

Yes that's the one.

 

[ddude003]

It looks like "Standard MM Mode" Gain 1 = L, Gain 2 = H with a gain of 42dB would be where to start...
Less Gain is "Decca Mode" Gain 1 = L, Gain 2 = L with a gain of 30dB...
And more Gain is "Low Output MM/High Output MC Mode" Gain 1 = H, Gain 2 = L with a gain of 48dB...

Those seem to be your choices... Lets see what the Schiit folks say...

I hate that Ortofon used ,s for .s and vice versa in their specs...

 

[Asere]

It looks like "Standard MM Mode" Gain 1 = L, Gain 2 = H with a gain of 42dB would be where to start...
Less Gain is "Decca Mode" Gain 1 = L, Gain 2 = L with a gain of 30dB...
And more Gain is "Low Output MM/High Output MC Mode" Gain 1 = H, Gain 2 = L with a gain of 48dB...

Those seem to be your choices... Lets see what the Schiit folks say...

Thanks for the info. The Schiit seems to have a better gain layout then the Project Tube Box DS. I couldn't understand the info they had but then again this is all new to me.
Also what an interesting name huh..Schiit.

 

[ddude003]

Thanks for the info. The Schiit seems to have a better gain layout then the Project Tube Box DS. I couldn't understand the info they had but then again this is all new to me.
Also what an interesting name huh..Schiit.

The Project Tube Box DS does have a more granular gain selection as well as some filtering...
Seems counterintuitive to hook a $130 phono stage to a $250 cartridge... However, price is not always indicative of performance...

 

[Asere]

The Project Tube Box DS does have a more granular gain selection as well as some filtering...
Seems counterintuitive to hook a $130 phono stage to a $250 cartridge... However, price is not always indicative of performance...

I know what you mean but the Schiit has great reviews like this one.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...84895c0bc3524b3525a7ab9a89843b0b&action=click

 

[ddude003]

I know what you mean but the Schiit has great reviews like this one.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...84895c0bc3524b3525a7ab9a89843b0b&action=click

Only your ears and your system in your room can be the judge of your choice and attainment of AV NIRVANA...

 

[Asere]

Only your ears and your system in your room can be the judge of your choice and attainment of AV NIRVANA...

That's true personal preference but it helps when the little guy has topped off some of the bigger more expensive giants.

 

[Grayson Dere]

I am not exactly sure what you are asking here... Gain and Volume are not the same thing...
Gain controls the voltage amplification of the circuit. Volume control reduces the overall signal level, when turned up all the way, it simply acts as a wire.

Remember that the Phone Stage is a PreAmp and the Receiver/AVR is a source (radio for instance) or source in (aux in for instance) as well as a PreAmp and Amplifier... The Volume on the Receiver would be an Attenuator on its internal PreAmp signal path... Again, there are two PreAmps in this total signal path... One is in the Phone Stage and the other is in the Receiver...

The short of it is that you want to Voltage Match the Phono Cartridge to the Phono Preamp, the Phono Preamp to the Receiver Preamp and Receiver and in-turn the Receiver Amplifier..

"Gain controls the voltage amplification of the circuit. Volume control reduces the overall signal level, when turned up all the way, it simply acts as a wire."

Thanks for this!! I've wondered for a long while now about how to word the differences.

 

[Asere]

I may not get the schiit since the capacitance is 100pf. I saw a Lounge Audio LCR phono pre that has a capacitance of 100pf but that's still low to match my blue cartridge of 150pf-300pf.
The Lounge also has a max 40db gain vs the schiit starting 42db.
You guys familiar with the Lounge MKiii preamp?

 

[Asere]

I ended up with the Lounge lcr mkiii and I like it so far. The vocals are clear and I don't need to turn it up too much because of the 40db gain.
Also for fun I bought the schiit mani used just to do comparisons.

 

[ddude003]

Nice to hear you are happy so far... I've heard good things about Lounge... Give it some time to run-in... 40 to 100 hours depending on the caps in there... And let us know how it gets on and what you think of the Schiit...

 

[Grayson Dere]

I ended up with the Lounge lcr mkiii and I like it so far. The vocals are clear and I don't need to turn it up too much because of the 40db gain.
Also for fun I bought the schiit mani used just to do comparisons.

Excellent choice! I've read reviews in the past on Lounge LCR products and they were all very positive. Enjoy!! : )

 

[Jack]

Think of this in respect to a guitar amplifier. Most tube amps include a gain and volume control. The gain control
allows the user to adjust the amplifier output to use the full range of volume control on the headunit.

Turn up the gain control to essentially shape the sound of the amp before volume is applied. This was you can get that overdriven sound at low or high volume settings. The volume control does not turn anything up, it can only lower it.

"Gain controls the voltage amplification of the circuit. Volume control reduces the overall signal level, when turned up all the way, it simply acts as a wire."

Thanks for this!! I've wondered for a long while now about how to word the differences.

 

[Asere]

Well I really like both the lounge and mani and can't tell much of a difference if any from each other. I was told that I would need a separate 2ch amp to take the place of the denon x4200 receiver in order to tell a difference.
Do I really need an amp maybe with ht bypass in order to get a better sound with my lounge phono amp?

 

[ddude003]

Wants and needs... Hmm... Sounds like you are on the AV NIRVANA treadmill... Could a separate 2 channel amplifier give you better sound than your Denon x4200, yes... There is always something better in each of the components of a system... Source, PreAmplifier, Amplifier(s), Speakers, etc... And at what level of price / performance? Heck, a phono stage can go anywhere from $99.00 up to a Manley Steelhead for $8k+ and beyond... The same goes for each component... Is it time to reconsider what your AV NIRVANA wants and needs are? AV Home Theater, 2 Channel Music, Integrated, Separates and/or Home Theater 2 Channel Hybrid?

Note to Mods... This above phono stage thread might need to be put into its own 2 channel thread?

 

[Asere]

Wants and needs... Hmm... Sounds like you are on the AV NIRVANA treadmill... Could a separate 2 channel amplifier give you better sound than your Denon x4200, yes... There is always something better in each of the components of a system... Source, PreAmplifier, Amplifier(s), Speakers, etc... And at what level of price / performance? Heck, a phono stage can go anywhere from $99.00 up to a Manley Steelhead for $8k+ and beyond... The same goes for each component... Is it time to reconsider what your AV NIRVANA wants and needs are? AV Home Theater, 2 Channel Music, Integrated, Separates and/or Home Theater 2 Channel Hybrid?

Note to Mods... This above phono stage thread might need to be put into its own 2 channel thread?

I was looking at getting something with ht bypass to use of course with the x4200. I have no idea how to connect a separate 2ch amp with ht bypass to the x4200 and how it works.
Will all the speakers be connected to the x4200 except for the front left and right mains? How does the ht bypass work?