Can You Hear A Difference Between Amps?

Can you hear a difference between amps?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 10 55.6%
  • No.

    Votes: 8 44.4%

  • Total voters
    18

AudiocRaver

Senior Reviewer
Staff member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Posts
974
Location
North Carolina, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Onkyo TX-SR705 Receiver
Main Amp
Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore-2 (x2 as monoblock)
Additional Amp
Behringer A500 Reference Power Amplifier
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Electromotion ESL Electrostatic (x2)
Center Channel Speaker
Phantom Center
Surround Speakers
NSM Audio Model 5 2-Way (x2)
Subwoofers
JBL ES150P Powered Subwoofer (x2)
For clarification... is the question can I (me, moi, myself) hear a difference... or do I think "anyone" can hear a difference... or do I believe there "is" or "is not" a difference?

I have not been able to hear a difference myself, but I believe there are likely those who can hear subtle differences from time to time.

Can we hear differences? Invoking Leonard's Universal Answer, "It depends."

Here is an example: Let's say Person A has a stereo amp with a poor crosstalk spec at 10 kHz, or maybe NO spec, and having poor performance in that regard. That means at high frequencies there is poor separation between the two channels. Let's say he has two of those stereo amps. And let's say that as he is setting them up, he gets a crazy idea and decides to set them up as monoblocks (kinda), NOT using bridged mode, but using normal stereo mode and only using the Left channel of each amp. Using those amps in this manner, Person A would be likely to hear great separation at high frequencies, and sharp imaging would be preserved.

Let's say Person B, with the same two stereo amps and speakers in a similar room, while setting them up, does not get that crazy idea and sets just one of them up in normal stereo mode. Using this amp in this manner, Person B might be likely to hear poor channel separation at high frequencies, and the imaging at high frequencies might seem vague and messy.

Person A and Person B might give different assessments of those two amps. Person A might say they sound sharp and clear, and Person B might say they sound vague and cloudy at higher frequencies.

The point is that the cause of differing sonics might be such that it causes unsatisfying results for one user and not for another, based on some details of setup that neither has thought about. NOW, try to get some kind of consensus about the sound of those two amps. Not likely. A fight might break out.

A statement earlier in the thread pointed out that the assumptions of discussion and implementation and evaluation must all be stated clearly before the discussion can begin to make sense. I agree, pretty much. Or, to be more specific, It Depends.
 

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,943
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Other Amp
McIntosh MA252 2-Channel Hybrid Integrated Amp
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Turntable/Cartridge
Music Hall Stealth Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
MediaLight Mk2 v2 Flex Bias Lighting
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Other Speakers
Wharfedale Super Linton
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Solidsteel - S3 Series Amp Stand
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Zu Audio DW-6 Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Additional Room System
Barn Jam
Denon AVR-X1600H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers
Well ... "It Depends" is NOT one of the options you gave us feller!
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

Guest
Yeah, we'll have to follow up with a "what does it depend on" poll with more options. When you get right down to it, if you can get all the conditions the same and keep amps operating in their nominal range, it is very hard to hear differences reliably.
 

tesseract

Senior Admin
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Posts
1,266
Location
Lincoln, NE
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-1
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 2
Other Amp
Dayton SA1000
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony BDP S590 & Pioneer DV-610AV
Streaming Subscriptions
h/k TC35C/Ortofon Super OM10/Pro-Ject Phono Box S
Front Speakers
JTR NOESIS 210 RT - L/R mains
Center Channel Speaker
Chase SHO-10 - Center
Surround Speakers
Chase PRO-10 - Surrounds
Subwoofers
Chase VS-18.1 x 2 - Subwoofers
Video Display Device
Vizio E550VL
Hi
Would I give up my Parasound amp for a lesser expensive amp with more power... nope! I feel comfortable with my Parasound and that it is doing the job like I want it to. I know Dennis wants it too, so that makes me want to keep it. Figure that one out... :bigsmile:

Yes, I do! But I thought about it, and bought an Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 instead. Took the money I saved and added somthing that did make audible night and day differences... a Dirac Live enabled XMC-1!
 

Jack

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
375
Location
Southern Indiana
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Integra 9.8 pre/pro, Denon 4520ci
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA5
Additional Amp
Darid I30
Other Amp
Hafler 220
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
Klipsch KLF10
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch C7
Surround Speakers
Various
Subwoofers
HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
Other Speakers
Lita Audio Tube Dac, MyDac, Home made Music server
Video Display Device
Panasonic Viera Plasma, 65"
Remote Control
Lots
Yes, I do! But I thought about it, and bought an Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 instead. Took the money I saved and added something that did make audible night and day differences... a Dirac Live enabled XMC-1!

I too would love a Parasound amplifier, but cannot afford one at this time. I also went with Emotive but an XPA 3 and XPA 5 with an Integra pre/pro with hopes that in the not too distant future there may be an XMC1 in my future....or maybe even a nice Parasound Preamp.

I completely agree that with rare exceptions, that there will not be night and day differences between amplifiers...well unless one listens to one amp in the afternoon and the other amp late in the evening, then that would be a night and day difference. :hide:
 

1_sufferin_mind

Active Member
Supporter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
494
Location
Indianapolis
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-2
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
McCormack DNA-1 Custom Monoblocks (On Standby)
Other Amp
Woo Audio WA6se w/ Audeze LCD-2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-95
Streaming Subscriptions
JVC X70R Proj ; PS Audio PWD w/ Streaming Bridge
Front Speakers
Revel Ultima Salon
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice
Surround Speakers
PSB Image B5
Subwoofers
Seaton Sound Submersive F2+/- pair
Other Speakers
Cary SLP98P / VPI SuperScout with JMW9 & Hana MH
Screen
TBD
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED 65CX
Can we hear differences? Invoking Leonard's Universal Answer, "It depends."
< snip >
A statement earlier in the thread pointed out that the assumptions of discussion and implementation and evaluation must all be stated clearly before the discussion can begin to make sense. I agree, pretty much. Or, to be more specific, It Depends.

Yeah, we'll have to follow up with a "what does it depend on" poll with more options. When you get right down to it, if you can get all the conditions the same and keep amps operating in their nominal range, it is very hard to hear differences reliably.

I was on the bandwagon with this until I thought about amps which are purposely "voiced" for a signature sound. Think tube amps with inordinate amounts of liquid midrange dialed-in by design. By definition, such amps distort in their normal operating range. While it may not be the intention of this survey to consider fringe categories, I would venture to say that differences between a "proper" design and a "voiced" one would be readily obvious to most listeners.
 

Jack

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
375
Location
Southern Indiana
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Integra 9.8 pre/pro, Denon 4520ci
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA5
Additional Amp
Darid I30
Other Amp
Hafler 220
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
Klipsch KLF10
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch C7
Surround Speakers
Various
Subwoofers
HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
Other Speakers
Lita Audio Tube Dac, MyDac, Home made Music server
Video Display Device
Panasonic Viera Plasma, 65"
Remote Control
Lots
I was on the bandwagon with this until I thought about amps which are purposely "voiced" for a signature sound. Think tube amps with inordinate amounts of liquid mid-range dialed-in by design. By definition, such amps distort in their normal operating range. While it may not be the intention of this survey to consider fringe categories, I would venture to say that differences between a "proper" design and a "voiced" one would be readily obvious to most listeners.

Might I submit that in reality ALL amplifiers and audio equipment of all types are voiced based upon the designers beliefs. Some quotes from the best designers of audio equipment in the field are as follows:

Jeff Joseph of Joseph Audio said – "I design for magic."

Sean Casey of the Zu Audio said - " There is no perfection and there is no accuracy, it's all relative. Listeners hear things differently, there are always psychological differences, there are always biases based on individual experience's."

Nelson Pass of Pass Labs said – "Most of the good designers who have control over the product, work towards the sound that they personally want and, if the curve is reasonably flat, call that natural."

Andrew Jones of Pioneer and Elac indicated that – "...so in reality, I design to my idea of what neutrality sounds like, on equipment I find also represents my idea of the sound of neutrality, with music that I enjoy and want to hear in the way I imagine it should."

Paul Barton of PSB said – "After measurements, once the new design meets or exceeds the performance expectation by measurements, then the listening step fine tunes the final speaker sound. There is no substitute for the listening step."

Jack Says - My tube amp can sound as cold or warm as I wish it to be sufferin, depending on the tubes I place into it. So I can be a designer as well. We all design our sound based upon finances or on our sensibilities.
 

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,943
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Other Amp
McIntosh MA252 2-Channel Hybrid Integrated Amp
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Turntable/Cartridge
Music Hall Stealth Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
MediaLight Mk2 v2 Flex Bias Lighting
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Other Speakers
Wharfedale Super Linton
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Solidsteel - S3 Series Amp Stand
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Zu Audio DW-6 Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Additional Room System
Barn Jam
Denon AVR-X1600H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers
Took the money I saved and added somthing that did make audible night and day differences... a Dirac Live enabled XMC-1!
You got that right... that can sho-nuff make a night and day difference... some times seriously over-the-top drastic.
...well unless one listens to one amp in the afternoon and the other amp late in the evening, then that would be a night and day difference.
Especially when that "one" who listens has had a few toddies. :blink:

Think tube amps
I do believe tube amps can no doubt sound quite a bit different from one to another because of how they are designed to be so different in many cases. I think most of the debate is more about solid state amps.
 

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,943
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Other Amp
McIntosh MA252 2-Channel Hybrid Integrated Amp
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Turntable/Cartridge
Music Hall Stealth Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
MediaLight Mk2 v2 Flex Bias Lighting
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Other Speakers
Wharfedale Super Linton
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Solidsteel - S3 Series Amp Stand
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Zu Audio DW-6 Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Additional Room System
Barn Jam
Denon AVR-X1600H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers
Richard Clark's $10,000 amp challenge... http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/

Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge FAQ
by Tom Morrow
Written 6/2006

The Richard Clark Amp Challenge is a listening test intended to show that as long as a modern audio amplifier is operated within its linear range (below clipping), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear. Because thousands of people have taken the test, the test is significant to the audiophile debate over audibility of amplifier differences. This document was written to summarize what the test is, and answer common questions about the test. Richard Clark was not involved in writing this document.

The challenge
Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.

His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules.

This article will attempt to summarize the important rules and ramifications of the test, but for clarity and brevity some uncontroversial, obvious, or inconsequential rules are left out of this article. The full rules, from which much of this article was derived, are available here and a collection of Richard's comments are available here.

Testing procedure
The testing uses an ABX test device where the listener can switch between hearing amplifier A, amplifier B, and a randomly generated amplifier X which is either A or B. The listener's job is to decide whether source X sounds like A or B. The listener inputs their guess into a computerized scoring system, and they go on to the next identification. The listener can control the volume, within the linear (non-clipped) range of the amps. The listener has full control over the CD player as well. The listener can take as long as they want to switch back and forth between A, B, and X at will.

Passing the test requires two sets of 12 correct identifications, for a total of 24 correct identifications. To speed things up, a preliminary round of 8 identifications, sometimes done without levels or other parameters perfectly matched, is a prerequisite.

Richard Clark normally has CD source, amplifiers, high quality home audio speakers, and listening environment set up in advance. But if the listener requests, they can substitute whatever source, source material, amplifiers, speakers (even headphones), and listening environment they prefer, within stipulated practical limits. The source material must be commercially available music, not test signals. Richard Clark stipulates that the amplifiers must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers, and they must not fail (e.g. thermal shutdown) during the test.

Amplifier requirements
The amplifiers in the test must be operated within their linear power capacity. Power capacity is defined as clipping or 2% THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less. This means that if one amplifier has more power (Watts) than the other, the amplifiers will be judged within the power range of the least powerful amplifier .

The levels of both left and right channels will be adjusted to match to within .05 dB. Polarity of connections must be maintained so that the signal is not inverted. Left and Right cannot be reversed. Neither amplifier can exhibit excessive noise. Channel separation of the amps must be at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

All signal processing circuitry (e.g. bass boost, filters) must be turned off, and if the amplifier still exhibits nonlinear frequency response, an equalizer will be set by Richard Clark and inserted inline with one of the amps so that they both exhibit identical frequency response. The listener can choose which amplifier gets the equalizer .

FAQs:
How many people have taken the challenge?
Richard Clark says over a couple thousand people have taken the test, and nobody has passed. He used to do the test for large groups of people at various audio seminars, and didn't charge individuals to do the test, which accounted for the vast majority of the people who did the test. Around 1996 was the last of the big tests, and since then he has done the test for small numbers of people on request, for a charge ($200 for unaffiliated individuals, $500 for people representing companies).

When did the challenge start?
Sometime around the year 1990. Richard Clark says in a post on 7/2004 that the test with the $10,000 prize started about 15 years ago.

What were the results of the test?
Nobody has ever successfully passed the test. Richard Clark says that generally the number of correct responses was about the same as the number of incorrect responses, which would be consistent with random guessing. He says in large groups he never observed variation more than 51/49%, but for smaller groups it might vary as much as 60/40%. He doesn't keep detailed logs of the responses because he said they always show random responses.

Is two sets of 12 correct responses a stringent requirement?
Yes. Richard Clark intentionally made the requirements strict because with thousands of people taking the test, even random guessing would eventually cause someone to pass the test if the bar was set low. Since he is offering his own $10,000 to anyone who will pass the test, he wants to protect against the possibility of losing it to random guessing.

However, if the listener is willing to put up their own money for the test as a bet, he will lower the requirements from 12 correct down to as low as 6 correct.

Richard Clark has said “22 out of 24 would be statistically significant. In fact it would prove that the results were audible. Any AVERAGE score more than 65% would do so. But no one has even done that”.”

Do most commercially available amplifiers qualify for this test, even tube amplifiers and class D amplifiers?
Yes. Nearly all currently available amplifiers have specs better than what are required for the test. Tube amplifiers generally qualify, as do full range class D amplifiers. It is not clear whether Richard Clark would allow sub amplifiers with a limited frequency response.

Besides taking Richard Clark's word, how can the results of the test be verified?
Many car audio professionals have taken the test and/or witnessed the test being taken in audio seminars, so there isn't much doubt that the test actually existed and was taken by many people. One respected professional who has taken and witnessed the test is Mark Eldridge. Because the test has been discussed widely on audio internet forums, if there were people who passed the test it seems likely that we would have heard about it. Sometimes there are reports of people who believe they passed the test, but upon further examination it turns out that they only passed the preliminary round of 8 tests, where levels were not matched as closely as for the final test.

How can audio consumers use the results of this test?
When purchasing an amplifier, they can ignore the subjective sound quality claims of marketers. Many amplifier marketers will claim or imply that their amplifiers have some special topology, materials, or magic that makes the sound clearly superior to other amps at all volume levels. Many consumers pay several times more than they otherwise would for that intangible sound quality they think they are getting. This test indicates that the main determinant of sound quality is the amount of power the amplifier can deliver. When played at 150W, an expensive 100W measured amplifier will clip and sound worse than a cheap 200W measured amp.

Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?
No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.

Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.

I changed amps in my system to another one with the same measured power and I hear a sound quality difference. Does this show that the test results are invalid?
No. Installing a new amplifier involves setting the gains and crossovers, and any slight change you make to those settings is going to affect how things sound.

Is adding an equalizer just a way of “dumbing down” the better amplifier ?
Richard Clark allows the equalizer to be added to whichever amplifier the listener wants. It can be added to the amplifier that the listener perceives as the weaker amplifier . The EQ is most likely to be used when comparing a tube amplifier (which exhibits slight high frequency rolloff) to a solid state amplifier . In that case Richard Clark says he can usually fashion an equalizer out of just a resistor and/or capacitor which for just a few dollars makes the solid state amplifier exhibit the same rolloff as the tube amplifier, and therefore sound the same. If the tube amplifier really sounded better, then modifying the solid state amplifier to sound indistinguishable from it for a few bucks should be a great improvement.

How might allowing clipping in the test affect the results?
It's impossible to know for sure because that would be a different test that has not been done. But Richard Clark seems to think that in clipping, conventional amplifiers would sound about the same, and tube amplifiers would sound different from solid state amplifiers.

Richard Clark reported that he did some preliminary experiments to determine how clipping sounds on different amplifiers . He recorded the amplifier output using special equipment at clipping, 12db over clipping, 18db over clipping, and 24db over clipping. Then he normalized the levels and listened. His perception was that with the same amount of overdrive, the conventional amplifiers sounded the same. With the same amount of overdrive the tube amplifiers sounded worse than the conventional amplifiers . On the basis of that experiment, he said “I believe I am willing to modify my amplifier challenge to allow any amount of clipping as long as the amplifiers have power ratings (actual not advertised) within 10% of each other. This would have to exclude tube amplifiers as they seem to sound much worse and it is obvious”

If a manufacturer reports false power ratings, will that interfere with the test?
No. The test is based on measured power, not rated power .

Does this mean that there is no audible difference between sources, or between speakers?
No. There are listening tests that show small but significant differences among some sources (for instance early CD players versus modern CD players). And speakers typically have 25% or more harmonic distortion. Most everyone agrees that differences among speakers are audible.

Does the phrase "a watt is a watt" convey what this test is about?
Not quite but close. Richard Clark has stated that some amplifiers (such as tubes) have nonlinear frequency response, so a watt from them would not be the same as a watt from an amplifier with flat frequency response.

Do the results indicate I should buy the cheapest amp?
No. You should buy the best amplifier for your purpose. Some of the factors to consider are: reliability, build quality, cooling performance, flexibility, quality of mechanical connections, reputation of manufacturer, special features, size, weight, aesthetics, and cost. Buying the cheapest amplifier will likely get you an unreliable amplifier that is difficult to use and might not have the needed features. The only factor that this test indicates you can ignore is sound quality below clipping.

If you have a choice between a well built reliable low cost amp, and an expensive amplifier that isn't reliable but has a better reputation for sound quality, it can be inferred from this test that you would get more sound for your money by choosing the former.

Do home audio amps qualify for the test?
Yes. In the 2005 version of the test rules, Richard explicitly allows 120V amplifiers in a note at the end.

How can people take the test?
They should contact Richard Clark for the details. As of 2006 Richard Clark is reported to not have a public email account, and David Navone handles technical inquiries for him. Most likely they will need to pay a testing fee and get themselves to his east coast facility.

Is this test still ongoing?
As of early 2006 , there have not been any recent reports of people taking the test, but it appears to still be open to people who take the initiative to get tested.

Do the results prove inaudibility of amplifier differences below clipping?
It's impossible to scientifically prove the lack of something. You cannot prove that there is no Bigfoot monster, because no matter how hard you look, it is always possible that Bigfoot is in the place you didn't look. Similarly, there could always be a amplifier combination or listener for which the test would show an audible difference. So from a scientific point of view, the word “prove” should not be used in reference to the results of this test.

What the test does do is give a degree of certainty that such an audible difference does not exist.

What do people who disagree with the test say?
Some objections that have been raised about the test:

  • Richard Clark has a strong opinion on this issue and therefore might bias his reports.
  • In the real world people use amps in the clipping zone, and the test does not cover that situation.
  • Some audible artifacts are undetectable individually, but when combined with other artifacts they may become audible as a whole. For instance cutting a single graphic EQ level by one db may not be audible, but cutting lots of different EQ levels by the same amount may be audible. Maybe the amps have defects that are only audible when combined with the defects from a particular source, speaker, or system.
  • Some listeners feel that they can't relax enough to notice subtle differences when they have to make a large number of choices such as in this test.
  • There is a lack of organized results. Richard Clark only reports his general impressions of the results, but did not keep track of all the scores. He does not know exactly how many people have taken the test, or how many of the people scored “better than average”.
  • If someone scored significantly better than average, which might mean that they heard audible differences, it is not clear whether Richard Clark followed up and repeated the test enough times with them to verify that the score was not statistically significant.
Is there one sentence that can describe what the test is designed to show?
When compared evenly, the sonic differences between amplifiers operated below clipping are below the audible threshold of human hearing.


Links



Note from the author
I wrote this Summary/FAQ because I found that many of the people who disagreed with Richard Clark about the challenge simply didn't have the whole story on the challenge. I originally thought the challenge was flawed even after I read the rules a few times, but after reading lots of comments from Richard Clark, my objections were answered and now I believe that understanding the challenge is a very useful tool for learning what is audible and what isn't. I have no relationship with Richard Clark and have never communicated with him except that I've read his public postings about the challenge. If anyone finds typos or factual errors in this document please contact me

Dennis might could win himself $10,000 ... I'd love to see him at least attempt it.
 

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,943
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Other Amp
McIntosh MA252 2-Channel Hybrid Integrated Amp
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Turntable/Cartridge
Music Hall Stealth Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
MediaLight Mk2 v2 Flex Bias Lighting
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Other Speakers
Wharfedale Super Linton
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Solidsteel - S3 Series Amp Stand
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Zu Audio DW-6 Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Additional Room System
Barn Jam
Denon AVR-X1600H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers
Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.
Interesting statement.
 

Jack

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
375
Location
Southern Indiana
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Integra 9.8 pre/pro, Denon 4520ci
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA5
Additional Amp
Darid I30
Other Amp
Hafler 220
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
Klipsch KLF10
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch C7
Surround Speakers
Various
Subwoofers
HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
Other Speakers
Lita Audio Tube Dac, MyDac, Home made Music server
Video Display Device
Panasonic Viera Plasma, 65"
Remote Control
Lots
I know I and maybe 3 others of us could win some money...but maybe under more relaxed conditions. I can hear differences easily between my Emotiva, my Hafler and my Denon.
Just sayin...
 

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,943
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Other Amp
McIntosh MA252 2-Channel Hybrid Integrated Amp
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Turntable/Cartridge
Music Hall Stealth Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
MediaLight Mk2 v2 Flex Bias Lighting
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Other Speakers
Wharfedale Super Linton
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Solidsteel - S3 Series Amp Stand
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Zu Audio DW-6 Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Additional Room System
Barn Jam
Denon AVR-X1600H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers

Jack

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
375
Location
Southern Indiana
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Integra 9.8 pre/pro, Denon 4520ci
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA5
Additional Amp
Darid I30
Other Amp
Hafler 220
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
Klipsch KLF10
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch C7
Surround Speakers
Various
Subwoofers
HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
Other Speakers
Lita Audio Tube Dac, MyDac, Home made Music server
Video Display Device
Panasonic Viera Plasma, 65"
Remote Control
Lots
Actually I am a dork, almost nothing but working the on and off buttons can be done easily in the hobby, but I have been able to tell the differences between amps.
Never the less, I am special, or at least my dog thinks so !! I really need to watch my adjectives better, now back to my peanut butter and jelly samich.
 

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,943
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Other Amp
McIntosh MA252 2-Channel Hybrid Integrated Amp
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Turntable/Cartridge
Music Hall Stealth Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
MediaLight Mk2 v2 Flex Bias Lighting
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Other Speakers
Wharfedale Super Linton
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Solidsteel - S3 Series Amp Stand
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Zu Audio DW-6 Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Additional Room System
Barn Jam
Denon AVR-X1600H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers
Well there are a LOT of people that say that, but they've just never been able to prove it to anyone else other than themselves. However, I can tell a difference in amps under the right circumstances, just not under normal listening.

I also haven't really been able to get very many who can identify what the difference are very well and consistently... or even say whether the differences are better or worse. Most people are all over the place when they don't know what they are listening to. I know people say they hear differences over time... well sure... our hearing changes with the weather, temperatures, conditions... even our speakers may sound a bit different from one month to the next. So I don't think we can pin the difference necessarily on the amp... it could be a lot of differences.

I don't think the issue is really can some people hear a difference... they just have no way of proving it to anyone but themselves, if they are really even doing that.
 

Jack

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
375
Location
Southern Indiana
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Integra 9.8 pre/pro, Denon 4520ci
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA5
Additional Amp
Darid I30
Other Amp
Hafler 220
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
Klipsch KLF10
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch C7
Surround Speakers
Various
Subwoofers
HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
Other Speakers
Lita Audio Tube Dac, MyDac, Home made Music server
Video Display Device
Panasonic Viera Plasma, 65"
Remote Control
Lots
Gotcha, so how do you really feel ?;)

I agree with a good part of your statement in rough terms but I may be a bit off about being able to hear a difference under the right circumstances but not normal listening. For me, normal listening and the right circumstances may not be mutually exclusive but i have been known to be wrong before.

This part "So I don't think we can pin the difference necessarily on the amp... it could be a lot of differences" is spot on and as such may demand another excellent point in that "people say they hear differences over time." I believe this may be the crux of most discussions about differences heard, felt or observed with most things in that living with something over time can bring out the gross differences as well as the teeny nit pick things. This thought can apply to cell phones, cars, computers, printers and yes audio equipment among many other things. Often I realize the small things over time that would be not only different but may drive me goofy. Take something as simple as a keyboard in that with time one can delve into the differences in button travel, comfort in use, accuracy (Ok this last one may really be my stupid fingers). These difference may be smallish and may not make themselves known to the user immediately without some involvement in the product.

For me at least, there is still the question of.... am I really experiencing a difference or am I just getting used to the changes between when the product first came into my sphere of use or are there really differences. In many cases only time and swapping new and old in and out may provide a good answer. Maybe the subtle differences we experience early on are just in our minds or memories and only long term experience with a product will bring out differences or dull our senses to these changes. As I continue to work with these differences and I get older and arguably wiser, the great divide of KNOWING and THINKING I know a thing blurs. I would really hate to be wrong you know as that would most certainly be icky and cause me to do this...:surrender:and dole out a billion apologies.
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

Guest
I have done many blind listening tests and I would be very surprised if anyone could get 12 correct selections twice. As noted this is well beyond statistical significance (which is stated somewhat incorrectly in Morrow's article, but the general idea is correct). Even at a confidence interval set lower than the typical 95% it is very difficult for even a very skilled listener like Dennis to get to that level. We have been very confident in differences and still not been able to be that consistent. The ABX comparisons are a variable themselves, rather than purely an objective standard as most people assume. If you don't have a great memory about what you were hearing, and you don't keep the music you are using exactly the same, it is almost impossible to keep track of what you heard on which pass. Even if you have those conditions, it is very hard.

Are there differences. Absolutely. But it seems clear that most amps working within their normal operating range are much more similar than different. What we need to do is quantify the actual differences between amps that do exist then try to correlate them to observable differences in listening. Anyone who believes that we have done everything we can do on the measurement front is simply misunderstanding the science. We may have done enough to satisfy most, and enough to justify those who think that all amps are the same and will not look farther, but this is not science any more than the golden ear who refuses to have his perception measured.
 

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,943
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Other Amp
McIntosh MA252 2-Channel Hybrid Integrated Amp
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Turntable/Cartridge
Music Hall Stealth Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
MediaLight Mk2 v2 Flex Bias Lighting
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Other Speakers
Wharfedale Super Linton
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Solidsteel - S3 Series Amp Stand
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Zu Audio DW-6 Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Additional Room System
Barn Jam
Denon AVR-X1600H HEOS Roon Ready Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers
I think the memory part is really my problem. When differences may be extremely subtle, it's just hard for me to pickup if there really is a difference. OTOH... if it's a noise... or over running the amp into clipping at loud volumes, I can certainly hear that with no problem.
 

Jack

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
375
Location
Southern Indiana
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Integra 9.8 pre/pro, Denon 4520ci
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA5
Additional Amp
Darid I30
Other Amp
Hafler 220
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
Klipsch KLF10
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch C7
Surround Speakers
Various
Subwoofers
HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
Other Speakers
Lita Audio Tube Dac, MyDac, Home made Music server
Video Display Device
Panasonic Viera Plasma, 65"
Remote Control
Lots
Very excellent and well thought out reply's Leonard and Sonnie, you two have been working on this issue for some time. I am gonna steal a quote and change it a bit.. Not everything that counts can be measured, and not everything that can be measured counts. I think it is obvious we all agree on this little ditty. Also I think by now I do not believe in the quick change out of amplifiers as the way to experience differences, unless of course there are gross differences and then I would assume something is not right with one of the units being engaged. Like many things in life, we must experience something for a time and then switch to another product and therein lies the biggest probability of detecting differences. Being very familiar with say an amplifier and then switching to another and if needed back to the original may indeed pop with information.

May we discuss how we do or do not know when am amplifier is no longer working within its normal operating limits versus when another component such as ones transducers is no longer operating within their normal limits and/or when a speaker is asking too much of an amp. For example my Dahlquist or Magnepans. Both types of speakers CAN play havoc with an amplifier that may work well with a set of easy to drive speakers. By this difference alone, one might then need then buy an amp to work especially well with these speakers while many other amps of good quality may be eliminated. Both amps may be working within their design limitation but one may not work within the design of the speakers limitation.

As far as memory is concerned, I agree completely, when it comes to ABX. But as mention above if one were to live with a product for a time and then switch out after say a couple weeks or a month differences if present will quickly make themselves known. This is why professional reviewers demand a long term loan and know that this is a practice for the semi knowledgeable hobbyist such as myself through to the highly professional such as Anthony Cordesman of a well known audio magazine who is widely trusted. Anthony is a well regarded author and works with the Strategic and International Studies and is a national security analyst on a number of global conflicts. Many thousand reviewers out there are on either side of this discussion.
 

tesseract

Senior Admin
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Posts
1,266
Location
Lincoln, NE
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-1
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 2
Other Amp
Dayton SA1000
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony BDP S590 & Pioneer DV-610AV
Streaming Subscriptions
h/k TC35C/Ortofon Super OM10/Pro-Ject Phono Box S
Front Speakers
JTR NOESIS 210 RT - L/R mains
Center Channel Speaker
Chase SHO-10 - Center
Surround Speakers
Chase PRO-10 - Surrounds
Subwoofers
Chase VS-18.1 x 2 - Subwoofers
Video Display Device
Vizio E550VL
Dennis might could win himself $10,000 ... I'd love to see him at least attempt it.

24 test runs would exceed my patience. I've experienced it at all the blind tests I have attended and have seen the human condition affect others after a few runs and several hours. You get tired/hungry/sore and it throws the test. I am no expert at these things but think that more useful data would come from several short tests performed over a period of days.
 

AudiocRaver

Senior Reviewer
Staff member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Posts
974
Location
North Carolina, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Onkyo TX-SR705 Receiver
Main Amp
Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore-2 (x2 as monoblock)
Additional Amp
Behringer A500 Reference Power Amplifier
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Electromotion ESL Electrostatic (x2)
Center Channel Speaker
Phantom Center
Surround Speakers
NSM Audio Model 5 2-Way (x2)
Subwoofers
JBL ES150P Powered Subwoofer (x2)
"Voicing" an amp... Hmmm, I cannot imagine how one would begin to do that. But then again, I have never tried to, so...

"Not everything that counts can be measured, and not everything that can be measured counts." Jack, love ya buddy, and while it sounds potentially-partially true, I gotta push back just a little. At Sonnie's recently, I was sure I could tell the difference between the sound of Direct and Pure Direct mode on his new Denon AVR - no doubt Sonnie will scoff at this a little. Or a LOT. I believe the difference was not actually the Denon itself - or by itself - but noise that was generated in Direct mode that got into another piece of gear in the signal chain and raised the noise floor enough to "cloud" the soundstage.

My points here:
  • If you can't measure it, you probably just haven't looked hard enough, or figured out how to measure it, or experienced it enough before to send you chasing after it to understand it and get to where you CAN measure it.
  • Interaction between two or perhaps more pieces of gear can be involved.
Elevated noise floor, damping factor, pre-ringing in a DAC reconstruction filter, these are all phenomena that I would never have believed I would be able to hear until I did and could verify that I did and understood the source of the problem. All a bit different from the actual question of the thread, but closely related.

Long-term testing might come in handy for certain kinds of phenomena that are more subtle AND of a more multi-sensory nature than hearing alone. Such as - an affect on imaging can be determined visually if the image is being shifted slightly. in position. This is far more common due to speaker placement and characteristics and might not be the greatest example, but it illustrates the point.
 

Jack

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
375
Location
Southern Indiana
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Integra 9.8 pre/pro, Denon 4520ci
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA5
Additional Amp
Darid I30
Other Amp
Hafler 220
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
Klipsch KLF10
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch C7
Surround Speakers
Various
Subwoofers
HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
Other Speakers
Lita Audio Tube Dac, MyDac, Home made Music server
Video Display Device
Panasonic Viera Plasma, 65"
Remote Control
Lots
"Voicing" an amp... Hmmm, I cannot imagine how one would begin to do that. But then again, I have never tried to, so...

"Not everything that counts can be measured, and not everything that can be measured counts." Jack, love ya buddy, and while it sounds potentially-partially true, I gotta push back just a little. At Sonnie's recently, I was sure I could tell the difference between the sound of Direct and Pure Direct mode on his new Denon AVR - no doubt Sonnie will scoff at this a little. Or a LOT. I believe the difference was not actually the Denon itself - or by itself - but noise that was generated in Direct mode that got into another piece of gear in the signal chain and raised the noise floor enough to "cloud" the soundstage.

My points here:
  • If you can't measure it, you probably just haven't looked hard enough, or figured out how to measure it, or experienced it enough before to send you chasing after it to understand it and get to where you CAN measure it.
  • Interaction between two or perhaps more pieces of gear can be involved.
Elevated noise floor, damping factor, pre-ringing in a DAC reconstruction filter, these are all phenomena that I would never have believed I would be able to hear until I did and could verify that I did and understood the source of the problem. All a bit different from the actual question of the thread, but closely related.

Long-term testing might come in handy for certain kinds of phenomena that are more subtle AND of a more multi-sensory nature than hearing alone. Such as - an affect on imaging can be determined visually if the image is being shifted slightly. in position. This is far more common due to speaker placement and characteristics and might not be the greatest example, but it illustrates the point.

Hmmm, I agree Wayne, you spelled it out well and I think your push back on my statement is well deserved. It would be nice to quantify and/or measure all things audio, soundstage for example to a very repeatable percentage, but for now that is a negatory ghost rider. Interaction between gear is a problem agreed strongly.

The only quibble would be that if we use the same preamp, same dac, same cables, same speakers and room, will we hear differences ? I believe so. Differences in Dac'sa, mPre amps and cables can be much easier to hear.

So in the end, love ya back as you have really voiced this issue well.
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

Guest
I fall largely on the side of not being able to hear differences in most amps, at least not reliably. That said, I strongly agree with Wayne, that not being able to measure a difference can often mean we have not looked hard enough. I have said for years that our measurement technology has not advanced significantly, at least in terms of determining what is audible and not.

I agree Jack, that we often assume that amps are operating within their nominal range when in fact the load is presenting challenges that are not understood.
 

AudiocRaver

Senior Reviewer
Staff member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Posts
974
Location
North Carolina, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Onkyo TX-SR705 Receiver
Main Amp
Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore-2 (x2 as monoblock)
Additional Amp
Behringer A500 Reference Power Amplifier
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Electromotion ESL Electrostatic (x2)
Center Channel Speaker
Phantom Center
Surround Speakers
NSM Audio Model 5 2-Way (x2)
Subwoofers
JBL ES150P Powered Subwoofer (x2)
Oh yeah, damping factor can cause a significant difference between, say, a tube amp and a solid state amp and they way they interact with a given speaker. This can cause a difference in frequency response.
 

1_sufferin_mind

Active Member
Supporter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Posts
494
Location
Indianapolis
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-2
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
McCormack DNA-1 Custom Monoblocks (On Standby)
Other Amp
Woo Audio WA6se w/ Audeze LCD-2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-95
Streaming Subscriptions
JVC X70R Proj ; PS Audio PWD w/ Streaming Bridge
Front Speakers
Revel Ultima Salon
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice
Surround Speakers
PSB Image B5
Subwoofers
Seaton Sound Submersive F2+/- pair
Other Speakers
Cary SLP98P / VPI SuperScout with JMW9 & Hana MH
Screen
TBD
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED 65CX
"Voicing" an amp... Hmmm, I cannot imagine how one would begin to do that. But then again, I have never tried to, so...
Did Bob Carver voice his Transfer Function amps of the '80s? His amplifier challenge claimed he could make his $700 Model 1.0 amp sound like any other amplifier, including cost-no-object high end ones.
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

Guest
There are differences in amps, in linearity of frequency response, damping factor, distortion characteristics of various flavors, and who knows what else. For the most part most amps sound more similar than different but there are some exceptions, particularly when you start including tubes. Carver claimed to be able to define what made amps sound a certain way and that he could duplicated that sound. I don't doubt that there is some grain of truth to that but like most claims of audible differences they are very much exaggerated. Funny that you don't hear anything about it in the current pitch from Carver. Or at least I did not when I got the pitch at AXPONA.
 
Top Bottom