My New Theater

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Todd stole my reply... but my thoughts exactly. You could even get the fronts in there too.

Yes, that is a possibility. If I were to do that, I would insist on at least EQing all the floor-level speakers with Dirac. So I would need the $1k 8-channel unit that miniDSP sells. The problem there is that, as far as I know, there is no 7.1.4 capable receiver out there that, combined with the 8-channel miniDSP, would come under $2k. Anyone know of any good options in that realm?

I could go with a last-year's-model AVR to achieve it perhaps. It would have to be an HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 compatible receiver with 4k HDR and Dolby Vision pass-through for sure.

What's the deal with the Emotive XMC-1 getting an upgrade to be able to do 7.1.4? I've read about it, but haven't investigated it further as I had not considered the possibility before. Will that box be updateable to the latest 4k video standards and 12 channel Atmos/DTS:X support? If so, a used one of those might be an option . . . or hit up some random Emotiva Upgrade-For-Life member . . . ;)

Edit: I see that the XMC-1 is supposed to be available before the end of the year with HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and Atmos/DTS:X 12 channel support for $3k. Hmmm, interesting
 
Last edited:

Sonnie Parker

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Posts
5,793
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Music Server
ROON Nucleus One
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Apple TV 4K
FireCube 3
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Middle Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivators - 4000ULF-TL x2 + 2400 x6
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
AVA Cinema
Cables
AudioQuest - Various
THX PixelGen HDMI
Pangea Power Cables
Custom Cables
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Network/Internet
C-Spire 1Gig Fiber
Omada OC300 Controller
Omada ER8411 10G Router
Omada SG3218XP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
Omada SG2210XMP-M2 10G/2.5G Managed Switch
SilentPower LAN iPurifier Pro (for Nucleus One)
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Headphones/IEMs
HIFIMAN HE1000se
Unique Melody Mest MKII
Headphone DAC/Amp
Eversolo DMP-A6
RME ADI-2 DAC FS
HIFIMAN Goldenwave Serenade
Whole House System
HEOS System
Home-150 Speaker x6
Samsung S9 Tablet w/ HEOS
Office/Study System
Office System
Dell Precision Computer
Roon Networked
Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus Speakers
Secondary/Additional Room System
AV Test Room System
NAD M33 Streaming DAC Amp
MartinLogan Motion XT F200
JTR Captivator RS1
miniDSP EARS
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Zero Surge 2R20W
Dell Optiplex
Roon Networked
Secondary/Additional Room System
Sunroom System
Denon AVR-X1800H HEOS Receiver
Soundfield Custom Speakers
Dayton Audio IO8XTW Outdoor Speakers
Roon Networked
Dish Joey
JVC 37" TV
Secondary/Additional Room System
Cabin System
Onkyo TX-SR805 Receiver
Infinity Primus P163 Speakers
RSL Outsiders Outdoor Speakers
Shield TV Pro
Sony 55" TV
Secondary/Additional Room System
Vinyl Room
Accuphase E-280 Integrated Amp
Technics SL-1210GR2 Turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge
KLH Model Three Speakers
Zero Surge 8R15W-1
Yes... from what I understand, the XMC is supposed to have all the upgrades and goodies before final release... it's a waiting game like everything else (think L7) with parts, production and in this case add to that software. Getting everything to come together is a challenge.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Yes, and Emotiva definitely has a history of being much later than anticipated on pre-pro boxes. And Chane on speakers. I do hope everything is aligned when it is time for me to buy. I will consider the XMC-1 if I can manage to get a discount or a used one. $3k is definitely out of the question though. Cause a pre-pro would also require me to buy more amplification, at another $500 or so probably.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Footings were poured earlier this week, and today the walls were poured. Picture on post 3.
 

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
A couple thoughts and questions. First, this all looks great.

As for electronics, take a look at NAD. Even their entry level receiver has Dirac and 7.2.4 available I believe. I’ve had great experience with NAD. I had a client about a decade who bought a Yamaha receiver. He was really unhappy with his sound. He hired me to fix his setup and basically go shopping with him (I don’t sell equipment). He had really liked a NAD integrated amp he had in a bedroom system so I took him to a dealer that sold Anthem, NAD, Meridian, Carver, and Yamaha. I had the dealer setup a comparison for me in the reference room so I could show him Meridian, Yamaha, and NAD. Long story short he went with NAD and still loves it (Meridian was better but not budget friendly).

Did I miss it or do you not plan to add green glue? If not I would advise otherwise. Green glue or similar products have a lot of advantages worth considering. The STC rating of just clips, hat channel, and two layers of drywall is quite a bit less than just adding green glue to that same equation. It also helps make the build process more forgiving of construction errors. Just one example mentioned by a well known Home theater designer is that at very low frequencies the drywall layers will not vibrate together precisely. They behave a bit like a fluid with ripples in a pond sort of effect, and as a result a vibration between the layers can cause a noticeable noise. While construction adhesive can fix this, you won’t save much if any money (you need near 100% coverage).

For doors, you may want to consider communicating doors. There exist no readily available doors with STC ratings beyond the very low 40’s. Doors with STC ratings of 50 or more require purchasing speciality soundproof doors. These are typically built to order and tricky to install. Communicating doors can provide similar performance for about 1/5 the cost, and again, are more forgiving of installation errors. I recently wrote a post on my research into soundproof door assemblies on another forum which may be helpful. If interested I can send a link. It covers a lot of details people sometimes miss. It’s such a big issue to me that I’m actually investigating manufacturing a door similar to what you are looking to buy. So far I am finding that what I thought I could sell for $500 is quickly turning into more like $1000 or more.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
A couple thoughts and questions. First, this all looks great.

As for electronics, take a look at NAD. Even their entry level receiver has Dirac and 7.2.4 available I believe. I’ve had great experience with NAD. I had a client about a decade who bought a Yamaha receiver. He was really unhappy with his sound. He hired me to fix his setup and basically go shopping with him (I don’t sell equipment). He had really liked a NAD integrated amp he had in a bedroom system so I took him to a dealer that sold Anthem, NAD, Meridian, Carver, and Yamaha. I had the dealer setup a comparison for me in the reference room so I could show him Meridian, Yamaha, and NAD. Long story short he went with NAD and still loves it (Meridian was better but not budget friendly).

Did I miss it or do you not plan to add green glue? If not I would advise otherwise. Green glue or similar products have a lot of advantages worth considering. The STC rating of just clips, hat channel, and two layers of drywall is quite a bit less than just adding green glue to that same equation. It also helps make the build process more forgiving of construction errors. Just one example mentioned by a well known Home theater designer is that at very low frequencies the drywall layers will not vibrate together precisely. They behave a bit like a fluid with ripples in a pond sort of effect, and as a result a vibration between the layers can cause a noticeable noise. While construction adhesive can fix this, you won’t save much if any money (you need near 100% coverage).

For doors, you may want to consider communicating doors. There exist no readily available doors with STC ratings beyond the very low 40’s. Doors with STC ratings of 50 or more require purchasing speciality soundproof doors. These are typically built to order and tricky to install. Communicating doors can provide similar performance for about 1/5 the cost, and again, are more forgiving of installation errors. I recently wrote a post on my research into soundproof door assemblies on another forum which may be helpful. If interested I can send a link. It covers a lot of details people sometimes miss. It’s such a big issue to me that I’m actually investigating manufacturing a door similar to what you are looking to buy. So far I am finding that what I thought I could sell for $500 is quickly turning into more like $1000 or more.

Thanks for all this. It gives me more to think about for sure.

So I perused NAD's website and it looks like the two options for Atmos 7.1.4 and Dirac Live are the T 777 and the T 758. Is that right? Do they do Dirac on all channels?

I've known about green glue for a long time, but had not dug into the test data until recently. As far as I can tell, it does make a difference but it's not quite as dramatic as I understood it was. For example, I have data (from Insul, if you're familiar), that shows that a staggered stud wall with two layers of 5/8" gyp either side and fiberglass in the middle that comes in at STC 58, with TL of 23 dB @ 63 Hz, 41 dB @ 125 Hz and 50 dB @ 250 Hz. According to Green Glue's data, this same construction with green glue between the layers of gyp on both sides gets us to STC 62, with TL of 44 @ 125 Hz and 53 dB @ 250 Hz (63 Hz not provided). That's a 4-point STC improvement, with 3 dB improvement at the lower octaves. That's not insignificant, but it's not a huge deal either, especially since I have to put a door on that wall and that will almost certainly be the weak link.

But perhaps I'm missing something - so please enlighten me on this. I'd love to learn more about it. I also need to take all of the constructions that Green Glue has data for and compare them to the same construction modeled in Insul. Unfortunately, as far as I've been able to find, Insul won't model with Green Glue.

I have gone back and forth on the doors. Do I get a single big heavy thing that can achieve STC 50+, or do I do two "sound rated" doors (probably with STC in the low 30 range). What can I expect to achieve with a pair of communicating exterior-grade doors, and how much money will that save, do you suppose. I am not quite as knowledgeable in this area.

Thanks a ton for your input.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Things kind of ground to a halt for the past couple of weeks, but we're gearing up to get going again. Concrete slab should be poured on Monday, and framing should start Wednesday. This is the part that goes fast and gets you excited.

Unfortunately, due to some construction issues and a bit of a lack of understanding on my part, the theater will probably be just over 14' wide and a bit less than 19' long (I was planning on 15' wide and a bit over 19' long). I should still have 9' of ceiling height. I guess you can't have it all sometimes.
 

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
I think you should certainly do what you think is best. I had never worked with green glue before my theater but had worked with double drywall and MLV. I’m now totally sold on green glue.

Green glue is just a damping compound. It isn’t going to substantially change the STC rating.

Take a look at this graphic representing the three primary regions of transmission loss. The regions are the stiffness controlled region, the mass controlled region, and the extension of the mass controlled region. These three zones or regions are separated by the wall resonant frequency and the material coincident frequency.

F547ABAB-34C6-4C8A-B52F-5C3D1EF685EE.jpeg


Notice the impact of damping. STC stops at around 4khz. The damping doesn’t have any impact in the midrange. Instead it reduces the impact of the two resonant frequencies and given enough damping can massively extent the mass controlled region. Fr(wall resonance) often falls at around 80-100hz in many 4-5” walls.
4EB77768-D6E9-41B4-B6D1-0829A470457F.jpeg
This wall shows the effect very well and is consistent with what you are considering doing. The main difference is you will use 16” OC studs which will raise the Fr a bit higher and thus constrict the mass controlled region. Notice the pronounced dip at the coincident frequency.

Here is an image from that same wall structure taken at Orfield labs.
5F0326E9-E155-4D1D-BFF2-EBF8532A7523.jpeg
They only rate the wall at an STC or 44 and this is with two layers of 5/8” drywall on both side and R13 insulation. Notice the pronounced dip at 2khz.

Now look at what green glue does.
581CCF10-A23F-42B7-A67B-A229423645F4.jpeg
Same wall with green glue but that 2khz coincident dip has been completely filled in and the Lf resonant frequency has also been filled in. This was also taken at Orfield lab.

With the insulation test data, I would want to see actual lab reports from Orfield lab before I believe those numbers. They are much higher than reported in lab reports from independent groups and studies. Everything I just showed is completely consistent with theory. The increase in midrange TL is accounted for by the added mass.
 

Attachments

  • 59268180-7577-4E24-991F-DBA10EBA5817.jpeg
    59268180-7577-4E24-991F-DBA10EBA5817.jpeg
    14.7 KB · Views: 40

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
I think DiRAC is coming to all the NAD products but as of right now it’s just the 758 v3. The 777 might have it now, not sure. It can be added to older NAD products through an MDC card.

I have no idea how many channels it does Dirac on. I would think and hope all of them.

https://nadelectronics.com/dirac-live/
Says multichannel support here. It costs $99 to get the full version. I’ve never used the LE version but I was a beta tester for Live when it first came out as a computer software. I found the improvement in the soundstage to be very pronounced and so would think the full version would be well worth it.

I plan to visit a dealer that has the 758 on display and hope to check it out. I may see if they will let me do a Home trial of some kind.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Things kind of ground to a halt for the past couple of weeks, but we're gearing up to get going again. Concrete slab should be poured on Monday, and framing should start Wednesday. This is the part that goes fast and gets you excited.

Is construction always behind? I think so. Concrete floor was poured on Tuesday, and framing was scheduled to start today but no one showed up . . . but hey at least the trusses arrived today. Post 3 now has a picture of the foundation done and ready.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Does anyone have suggestions or things to watch for during construction that can help ensure that deep bass doesn't produce audible vibrations, resonances and rattling in the theater?
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Okay, post 3 has been updated with a picture of the exterior wall framing done. They have also mostly framed the interior walls and the riser for the second row, but I think we will be making some changes so I will post a picture of that later when it's settled.

I will shortly be running 110 VAC, speaker wires, CAT6 cable and conduit for the HDMI run to the projector.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
To carry on the conversation started in the Hsu ULS-15 review thread, it is my hope that four 15" sealed subs will achieve excellent subsonic output and extension in my under-2500 cu ft room. I am expecting to get extension to 10 Hz with room gain. And with four subs and a fair bit of placement flexibility for them, I should also be able to achieve smooth frequency response and consistency among the various seating positions.

The Hsu review reminded me of those great subs, and I would seriously consider four of them. However, I have been captivated by Rythmik for quite some time, and the fact that I can purchase two F25 kits (dual 15" subs) for just under $2k shipped, and build four boxes for them, is very appealing. Even at Hsu's amazingly low price, I'd still be into four of their subs about $3300 shipped. With Rythmik I'll probably slide in under $2500 including the money I'll spend for materials to build the boxes.

Doesn't hurt that the Rythmiks are down 2 dB at 14 Hz anechoic, either. Their flexible EQ and damping controls should allow me to do the same sort of thing you can do with the Hsu's Q and EQ settings.
 

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
To carry on the conversation started in the Hsu ULS-15 review thread, it is my hope that four 15" sealed subs will achieve excellent subsonic output and extension in my under-2500 cu ft room. I am expecting to get extension to 10 Hz with room gain. And with four subs and a fair bit of placement flexibility for them, I should also be able to achieve smooth frequency response and consistency among the various seating positions.

The Hsu review reminded me of those great subs, and I would seriously consider four of them. However, I have been captivated by Rythmik for quite some time, and the fact that I can purchase two F25 kits (dual 15" subs) for just under $2k shipped, and build four boxes for them, is very appealing. Even at Hsu's amazingly low price, I'd still be into four of their subs about $3300 shipped. With Rythmik I'll probably slide in under $2500 including the money I'll spend for materials to build the boxes.

Doesn't hurt that the Rythmiks are down 2 dB at 14 Hz anechoic, either. Their flexible EQ and damping controls should allow me to do the same sort of thing you can do with the Hsu's Q and EQ settings.

So this is just my two cents. When it comes to subwoofers, there are so many ways to achieve the same ends its hard to say any one is right or wrong.

I think the Rythmik products are great and offer a lot of performance for the money. They would make you happy I'm sure. They offer among the lowest measured distortion of any subwoofer I've ever seen.

The ULS-15 is certainly also a great sub and it is finished, has a warranty, and probably would have a better resale value if you ever changed your mind.

Having said all that, if most high quality bass for your buck is what you are after, I happen to think there are other options to consider in the DIY end of things. While servo's can produce really low distortion, the reality is, so can well designed motors. At one time I think Servo's made perfect sense. Today, I have no issue with them, but you can achieve equal performance without them. Any of the Dayton Reference or Ultimax drivers will achieve very similar distortion performance for less money. Mach 5 Audio and TC Sounds (no longer available) can actually achieve slightly better performance in terms of output at very low distortion. Further, if you are willing to consider a very low tuned vented box, pro drivers from B&C (among others) will now achieve very high output and very low distortion well into the teens. In a sealed room, you will have flat response to 10hz if you want. My experience has been that the 18" and 21" pro drivers now compete with and often exceed the capabilities of the typical home theater subwoofer drivers. They are more linear, handle a lot more power, are a lot more efficient, and have similar displacement. Their problem is that you must use them with full DSP controls, as they will not have the same flat response as an HT driver. To get the kind of rising bass response curve that people like, you will need to use a MiniDSP or Dirac device (or similar) to get that shape. If box size is an issue, you can go with an 18" pro driver and an 18" passive radiator. You could tune it as low as possible, say 10hz, and get the extension you want. Having said that, my friend with four 21" B&C drivers (which each have 17mm of one way xmax) tuned to 15hz has extension to 10hz and can easily exceed our peak SPL measurement capability of 130db's with low distortion. If you bought four 18" B&C DS115 drivers, a 4 channel Behringer amplifier, and a mini DSP, you would likely be looking at just a bit over $2500 after enclosure materials. If you went Vented it would depend on how you vented them in terms of cost, PR's would be more expensive. If you are handy (and it seems you are) you could make a port that wraps around the box to keep it long but compact and achieve a similar low tune. In all honesty, I would be fairly shocked if any sane person found 4 DS115's in sealed boxes in a sealed room of your size to not be adequate in output, but the porting does provide about 6db's more headroom. If you do dual apposed sealed boxes with DSP, you will easily hit your SPL levels with very very low distortion, but your driver cost doubles.
 

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
Does anyone have suggestions or things to watch for during construction that can help ensure that deep bass doesn't produce audible vibrations, resonances and rattling in the theater?

Yeah a bunch of things. First, make sure that if electrical is in conduit (It is code here) that it doesn't lie on the ground or wall. I made my electrician place it in the middle of the studs and only bend in at the boxes. I also had him glue the conduit to the studs in places to ensure no vibrations.

If you are using any soundproof techniques, keep everything as tight as possible. When I first built my room, the channel and clips rattled. It took some work to get it solid again, and to be honest, I've always worried it might still rattle given enough bass. Had I to do it all over again, I might have splurged for more expensive clips with better vibration isolation to minimize that. I have pounded on my walls and played very high levels and not heard or measured any rattles, but it was clearly audible when the walls first went up.

Don't let the drywall touch the ground. Leave a gap large enough to fill with acoustic caulk. Even if your room isn't being built as soundproof, this is good to avoid vibrations.

If you use multiple layers of drywall adhere them together. I happen to think Green Glue is the best cheapest option for this. If you insist on going another route, at least use some other adhesive. Panels will rub together, even tests done to look at drywall isolation without glues found resonances causing extra sound leakage, which also implies you could get some drywall flapping/clapping sounds.

When choosing lights, don't choose anything that isn't solid. A lot of guys buy pressure fit lights that rattle, that is a bad plan. If you do what I did and do wall lights, I would avoid glass diffusers as they likely rattle. If you get those, add some damping to the glass base where it sits in the mount. Adhesive cork might work.

Anything like that, just make the installation of everything as tight as possible. Remember, your contractor doesn't know what he is doing when it comes to building a theater unless he has extensive experience with top end theaters. He may tell you a lot of things that aren't true. My contractor told me things like drywall can't flex much from bass, that glue is worse not better, etc. None of this kind of stuff is true. They often don't understand the kind of issues we are dealing with.

Oh for electrical make sure everything is on the same phase. I think I saw you said you are doing it yourself so I assume you know that. I didn't realize that on the same phase meant every other row in the panel. I thought phase was split by side. If running multiple circuits to your equipment, star ground them. I have 3 circuits (6 outlets) in my closet and ran ground pigtails from each outlet box to the central box. My projector power is run back to the equipment closet and branches off from there, again, grounded to the same point. Projectors very commonly cause ground loops.

If soundproofing at any level is important to you, try to remember all the penetrations and plan around the big ones. I made a lot of mistakes there that required quick last minute engineering. I was so used to commercial soundproofing that many residential building practices through my plans to the curb. My door jams had large gaps as residential door jams normally have large gaps. That is bad for soundproofing. I ended up using a commercial trick that was messy and expensive. I created a flexible damped cement that I injected into the door frame gap once the door was shimmed in place. My duct vents had a nearly 4" gap between the end of the duct and the end of the drywall. I had to seal that with high mass and keep it all as decoupled as possible (Drywall, green glue, damped cement, etc.). I planned to hang the ductwork with decoupling mounts, but had no room and had to move to a different kind of mount (which had to be overnighted to avoid holding up the drywall guys).

As you might imagine I would do, as this is my nature, I spent a lot of time reading academic journals, books, you name it to learn as much as I could about the physics behind soundproofing. I spent well over a year studying the topic at a level I had never done before. I also spent a few days with some guys building a studio in Chicago to learn what some of this looks like in practice. My only experience prior had been other DIYers own theaters or some office building and hotel jobs (which use different products and approaches to be honest). I learned a few common home theater soundproofing tricks that are probably not a good idea, all things considered. First is that its common to use outside doors for soundproofing. Nothing wrong with it, but they aren't more soundproof than inside doors. I also heard that solid core is more soundproof than hollow-core. A number of studies and the official STC values for these doors shows that isn't true. If you are using communicating doors as I did, then its a good idea, if not, then it really won't matter. You have basically about STC20-25 and that's it, doesn't matter if its 2" thick solid core or 1.25" cardboard core. There are always exceptions with some special mineral core doors getting into the 30's and even low 40's. They cost more of course. If you need help identifying those doors let me know, I have a list posted on AVS I can dig back up.

Another Home Theater myth that doesn't hold up to scrutiny is the use of acoustic flexible duct. Sound enters and escapes a theater through the ducts in two primary ways. Traversing through the duct path and breakout/in. Most people assume that traversing along the duct is the most significant and that is true of steel duct because steel duct has a wall STC of about 20-25, especially if you damp its resonances. The assumption then is that acoustic flex duct (with no resonances) is better because it absorbs all the sound. While its true that it will not allow very much sound to pass along the duct route, the primary reason for that is because nearly all the sound breaks in/out of the duct walls themselves. The fiberglass and plastic only provide about 3-6db's of sound isolation. The transmission loss is minimal (way below steel duct). There are options, but what I learned from the Studio builders is that professional studios and soundproof chambers are built with steel duct and often custom fiberglass/wood or ductboard ducts. The studio I watched had special Spiracoustic double wall ducting with fiberglass lining running into the studio. It then entered a ductboard and drywall/plywood plenum inside the soundproof shell. No flex duct. The spiracacoustic was sprayed with a damping compound inside and out and they had rubber isolation couplers in a few locations. In a theater, you can use the flex duct if you keep it inside the sounrpoof shell, but it shouldn't run outside the soundproof shell or it becomes a big hole. One option is to use damped steel ductwork into the theater, then create an internal plenum within the soundproof shell that itself is encased and soundproof. You also need to way oversize your ductwork to reduce the air velocity and reduce air noise. Keep heavy bends at least 20-30 inches from the actual room entry where possible. a 90 degree bend causes turbulence which causes noise. My ductwork is 10" with 1.5" fiberglass lining, spiracoustic in some sections. I should have gone with 12" in hindsight and I have too many sharp bends near the room entry. I have a bit of air noise, not a lot, we are talking down below 25db's or so, but I can hear it (It's the loudest noise in my room).

The other big lesson I learned is that while attention to detail on this stuff is important, it is going to be imperfect. You can't lose sleep over every little detail. There are so many things you can pick apart that in the end won't really matter.

Oh I also totally mis-managed the contractors doing the work. I worked with a primary contractor and we co-managed the project, but he didn't really know how long it would take. I added time but I needed to double my estimates. I ended up having to work with the contractor to install fiberglass insulation all night so he could spend the entire next day putting the clips and channel up. It then took him 2 days instead of 1 (about 12 hours each day) to do that, and so we had to delay the drywall guys one day. Then we had to stop the drywall guys at a few points to go in and seal some gaps before they finished the walls. I also had to spend a few nights doing acoustic caulking myself (and I bought 1/4th as much as I needed and had to buy a lot more multiple times), as the other guys didn't fully understand the issues.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
If you are using any soundproof techniques, keep everything as tight as possible. When I first built my room, the channel and clips rattled. It took some work to get it solid again, and to be honest, I've always worried it might still rattle given enough bass. Had I to do it all over again, I might have splurged for more expensive clips with better vibration isolation to minimize that. I have pounded on my walls and played very high levels and not heard or measured any rattles, but it was clearly audible when the walls first went up.

Oh for electrical make sure everything is on the same phase. I think I saw you said you are doing it yourself so I assume you know that. I didn't realize that on the same phase meant every other row in the panel. I thought phase was split by side. If running multiple circuits to your equipment, star ground them. I have 3 circuits (6 outlets) in my closet and ran ground pigtails from each outlet box to the central box. My projector power is run back to the equipment closet and branches off from there, again, grounded to the same point. Projectors very commonly cause ground loops.

.

Thank you for that extensive advice. Regarding the quoted parts above, what clips do you regard as the best. I had planned on RSIC clips. This will be for the ceiling only -- as it turns out, all the other walls I care about are double stud walls.

Also, I may be doing the electrical, but I don't know a bunch about that. I have a couple people helping me that know what they're doing. So I guess I need to know what it means to have all the theater circuits on the same phase.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
Next thing: I have been planning on a 2.35 CIH (constant image height) screen setup, since most of what I will watch in the theater will be movies and a large majority of the movies I watch are scope. However, I've read about CIA (constant image area) and thought about it too. I'd love to hear some opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of each approach.
 

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
I never figured out what caused the sounds in my walls. Was it the clip against the screw into the stud? Was it the stud and clip? Was it the hat channel sitting in the clip? It's an assumption that the hat channel sitting in the clip was the problem. I had thought that a clip with a more resilient mount of its own might be better.

https://www.tmsoundproofing.com/Resilient-Sound-Clips.html
Supposedly the whisper clip is the cat's meow. I have samples, but I didn't install them.

What I actually wanted to use was the Kinetic Isomax. I've used their stuff in commercial settings. I tried to score a job using their stuff with a big client just so I could add on to the order for my theater, but didn't win the bid (It was a long shot, I probably couldn't handle the job anyway, soundproofing an entire skyscraper in Chicago). I think Kinetic makes some of the best isolation stuff, but its designed with very particular installation methods in mind. The Isomax is not as good as other mounts with a single layer of drywall because the rubber is too hard for the weight of a single layer. It needs at least 2 layers of drywall to be sufficiently heavy to get the right resonant frequency of the mass/spring system. Since I did 2+ layers of drywall with green glue that wouldn't have been an issue, but at $6 a clip, and needing 100's of clips, I couldn't afford them.

I also adhered my drywall to the resilient mount in places. I intentionally didn't do 100% in order to maintain the resilience. I used leftover green glue, little blobs here and there. The thought is that it would damp the resilient channel. If I had to do this over, I think I would have sprayed the resilient channel with a damping compound.

https://www.acrytech.com/product/acoust-x-sound-damping-coating-1-gallon/
This is what I used on all my hvac ducting inside and out. I thought it might be good on the hat channel too, but I was worried that it was an unproven idea that could make things worse. I still think it might have merit. I need to convince Riverbank to let me do free R&D at their lab (I'm 20 minutes from them), then we could test this idea. If you wanted to try it, you might buy a gallon of this to start. Spray or paint it on a scrap of hat channel. When it dries, try to clip it into the RSIC clip to be sure it still clips ok and doesn't crumble off. Try to screw a piece of scrap drywall to the hat channel to see how it sits. If everything sits nicely and the coating seems nice and thin, that might be a good way to damp and quiet the clips. Of course, this could be a totally minor non-sense issue. I still don't know the actual cause of sound I heard.

https://www.soundisolationcompany.c...ofing-walls/stud-joist-isolation-gasket-tape/
This is another cheap product that might damp the channel. It's also good for risers. My top layer of my riser sits on top of this. You can get a similar product on amazon if you need a cheap source. I'd call around if you are interested, I got a lot of quotes.
 

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
Next thing: I have been planning on a 2.35 CIH (constant image height) screen setup, since most of what I will watch in the theater will be movies and a large majority of the movies I watch are scope. However, I've read about CIA (constant image area) and thought about it too. I'd love to hear some opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of each approach.

I don't have the capability. The CIH lenses are supposed to be the best approach with processing to stretch the image. However lenses make the image worse so you need good optics and those lenses cost a fortune. I remember finding a relatively inexpensive (like under $1000) option once, if I can find it again I'll share. Other people use zoom memory, which loses brightness and resolution, but many don't mind. I don't have this capability.

it's certainly more dramatic, but not something I felt was important enough to pursue.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
So it's time to run speaker wire in the theater, and I've been pondering how to terminate it at the speaker end. What do most people do?

I have thought that I should install a back box on the studs and bring the wire through there, then when the finish work is all done I could install a banana plug plate. Then when I install speakers, I could have a cable terminated at both ends with bananas and make the connection to the speaker that way.

Thinking about the same thing for subwoofer line-level connections as well. An RCA or XLR jack on the wall would allow me to have a length of cable between the sub and the wall, and I could maintain placement flexibility that way.

What do you all recommend, or what have you done in your spaces?
 

Todd Anderson

Editor / Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Posts
9,816
Location
Balt/Wash Metro
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP.24 MK2
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Gen3 2.8 multichannel amp
Other Amp
Denon X8500H
DAC
THX ONYX
Computer Audio
AudioEngine A2+
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Kaleidescape TERRA, OPPO UDP-203, Panasonic UB9000
Streaming Equipment
iFi Audio Zen Blue
Streaming Subscriptions
Spotify
Front Speakers
GoldenEar Technology Triton One.R
Center Channel Speaker
GoldenEar Technology SuperCenter Reference
Surround Speakers
GoldenEar Invisa MPX
Surround Back Speakers
GoldenEar Invisa MPX
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Front, Top Mid-Front)
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Middle, Top Rear)
Subwoofers
Quad Array SVS SB16s
Other Speakers
Behringer 1124p; Aura Bass Shaker Pros; SuperSub X
Screen
Seymour Screen Excellence, Enlightor NEO AT Screen
Video Display Device
JVC NZ8
Other Equipment
Sony 65-inch A95L OLED, Sony 65-inch X900F, ZeroSurge 8R15W x 2, ZeroSurge 2R15W x 2
I'm not sure what to tell you... we are starting to talk about building an addition on this end, which could mean a new HT space. I've been following what you're going through.

I like your idea of having plates that you just plug into. Makes sense... way easier that way. For subs, it almost seems like it makes sense to run conduits just incase you need to run new cables in the future. Have you considered that?

I'm sure Matt will have some suggestions...
 

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
My wire just runs through conduit with no wall plate or wall termination. Just free flowing. That works for me since the equipment closet and speakers are all hidden from view.

Wall plates work fine, it's just extra termination. I personally don't like adding extra breaks in the cable like that but it's realistically a minor issue.

Conduit is good for running more cables. If you are like me that is a must, I'm always changing things. If that won't happen then a wall plate is fine.

Did you decide on soundproofing? If is there are different issues.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
I like your idea of having plates that you just plug into. Makes sense... way easier that way. For subs, it almost seems like it makes sense to run conduits just incase you need to run new cables in the future. Have you considered that?

Yeah, there is some appeal to wall plates, and I've seen it done before. I have considered conduit for the sub cables, just in case one fails, and I think I will do that.

My wire just runs through conduit with no wall plate or wall termination. Just free flowing. That works for me since the equipment closet and speakers are all hidden from view.

Wall plates work fine, it's just extra termination. I personally don't like adding extra breaks in the cable like that but it's realistically a minor issue.

Conduit is good for running more cables. If you are like me that is a must, I'm always changing things. If that won't happen then a wall plate is fine.

Did you decide on soundproofing? If is there are different issues.

All my speakers will be in-room. The fronts will be off the front and side walls 2-3 feet for movies, and I will be leaving enough loose cable to be able to experiment with placement for stereo listening. The other speakers will be up against the walls or ceiling. Equipment will be in an in-wall cabinet with access to the rear from a different room (recent idea, and unfortunately a soundproofing compromise).

The extra terminations is my main objection to the wall plate idea actually. I suppose I could just install the electrical boxes and pull the cable to them. They could then exit through a wall plate with a brushed opening, like the attached picture.

I've also thought about pulling six conductors to each speaker location (except perhaps the ceiling locations), just in case I get crazy some day and decide to run active speakers amplified by amps in the rack. I had that thought just the other day. If I did that, I would forgo conduit for speaker wire. That would be a ton of conduit, and that's not cheap . . .

Regarding your comment about soundproofing - that's why I hesitate to be punching holes in the walls all over the place. But hey, you gotta run wire and it's gotta get through the wall somehow. The three walls I'm concerned about will be double stud walls with two layers of 5/8" gyp on the theater side (green glue in between), and fiberglass in the cavity. Ceiling will be 5/8" gyp on clips, green glue and OSB on the theater side, with fiberglass in the cavity. I will be using putty pads on all electrical penetrations. Is there something else I should be paying attention to in that regard?
 

Attachments

  • brush insert.PNG
    brush insert.PNG
    31.7 KB · Views: 37

Matthew J Poes

AV Addict
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Posts
1,903
With a soundproof room the conduit becomes a sound leak but not a major one. I always suggest conduit because you never know what could happen, but up to you. If nothing else I suggest testing the cables before closing up the walls. I've had a number of bad cables over the years.

Ok so to soundproof with wire you have a few choices.

  1. Drill a hole just slightly bigger than the wire. Have enough wire length for your needs. Caulk the wire and wall when done to seal. This is what most people do for surrounds. It's the most soundproof option.
  2. Run conduit inside the soundproof shell through soffits and such. This is also very soundproof but more work. If you have the room and budget, do this.
  3. Run conduit between the equipment area and speakers in walls. Connect conduit to solid low voltage boxes. Caulk boxes so they are sealed. Use putty pads around outside of low voltage boxes and around the conduit to box connection. Basically make the entire thing air tight. This isn't as soundproof as the other options but it's not terrible either.
You can use wall plates to terminate all of these. It looks very tidy, I just have philosophical issues with it.

What not to do:
  1. Run the wires to a wall plate that is connected to no box or an open box. This makes a big penetration that can't really be soundproofed.
  2. Put tight bends in the conduit. 90 degrees or loops or many close together are hard for a wire puller to bend around.

As for conduit, real conduit is best but PVC pipe is ok. One suggestion, If you use PVC pipe try to avoid right bends. I have two 90 degree bends and it's very hard to push my wire pull through it. If I had it to do over I would have used a soft bend or a couple 45's with a little space between them. PVC is cheaper than conduit but it won't terminate into a low voltage box I don't believe. Also get some wire pull lubricant it makes the job a lot easier. It's silicone I believe.
 

bkeeler10

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Posts
344
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD T758 v3
Main Amp
Outlaw Model 7125
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-103/Panasonic UB820
Front Speakers
Revel Concerta2 F36
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Concerta2 F36
Surround Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Surround Back Speakers
Revel Concerta2 M16
Front Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Rear Height Speakers
Tannoy AMS 6DC
Subwoofers
Rythmik F18 (2)
Other Speakers
miniDSP 2x4
Screen
Seymour AV retractable 110" 2.35 AR (UF material)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-RS440
It's been a while since I've updated this thread with our progress. That's mostly because there hasn't been much progress :gah:

I am currently pulling speaker wire in the theater. I decided to also run conduit to all speaker locations, and for subwoofer cables and of course video cable to the projector location. Hopefully I can get the conduit installed this weekend.

I investigated the possibility of doing a minisplit HVAC system for the theater. I found some rather quiet ones (around 20 dBA). Unfortunately, the installed price of these units tops $3000. Considering that we're already over budget on this add-on, we are not too keen on spending that much more. It turns out I don't have enough room for a dead vent, without stealing non-negotiable space from the adjacent room. Long story short, the theater will share HVAC with the rest of the house. I am now looking for inline silencers for the theater supply and return trunks to minimize airborne sound transfer through the ductwork.

My primary concerns with tying the theater HVAC into the rest of the house are: 1. Sound transfer via the ductwork (airborne and breakout noise), which I think I can minimize with careful planning; 2. The potential for the theater to need to be cooled when the rest of the house needs to be heated. Since the theater will be insulated on all sides, and there will be equipment in the room and sometimes several people, it could get quite warm in there while the rest of the house is too cool. I can close the vents in the theater, but that may not be enough and will also introduce air turbulence noise when the HVAC system is running. Perhaps I will have them install a damper ahead of the theater trunk that can be separately controlled.

I suppose if it turns out to be a big problem, I could have a minisplit installed in the future when the bank account recovers.

Anyway, there's the latest for ya.
 
Top Bottom