Synyrgy Cynyma II ( Pronounced: Lynyrd Skynyrd Too)

[1_sufferin_mind]

My Chicago visit with designer extraordinaire, Mark Seaton, was interesting and informative. Mark painstakingly fabricates his designs out of his Morton Grove office one at a time, with excellent attention to detail. The custom drivers he uses are QC inspected and tested for tight performance tolerances and rejected if they don’t pass stringent limits.

Mark juggles quite a few responsibilities including his family, and still manages to answer his own business phone and email. It may not be right away, but he places high importance on customer service. A short lag time is worth accessibility to deep knowledge when you do connect.

Having seen just a single SubMersive in person has me questioning the sanity of my decision to shoehorn two of these into my new space. I have a few placement ideas in mind, but they won’t flesh themselves out until speaker placement and room tuning gets underway.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I’m planning some of the room’s logistics for alternate equipment location/wiring. Does anyone have a strong opinion on short speaker cables vs. long interconnects and vice versa? It will make a difference for my L/R monoblocks.

 

[NBPK402]

Do you have a balanced amp and preamp? I have been told that with balanced connections you are less susceptible to interference, and less loss with long cables. I was also told that long speaker cables can roll off the top end.
I run balanced preamps, and power amps for these reasons.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I do! But only on the HT side. I’m running in Brady-Bunch mode: my HT and 2-ch systems are married through their preamps. The HT preamp has balanced connections. The stereo preamp does not.

I originally planned to run my 2-ch preamp in HT BYPASS mode (passive connection when powered off). But Mark Seaton pointed out that would cause bass management issues. My HT preamp’s performance is considered to be excellent, so it doesn’t bother me that an A/D-D/A conversion is inserted in the analog chain. I would rather reap the rewards of having the SubMersives in the equipment loop than squirm over whether or not an additional digital conversion threw a slight veil over the sound.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Do you have a balanced amp and preamp? I have been told that with balanced connections you are less susceptible to interference, and less loss with long cables. I was also told that long speaker cables can roll off the top end.
I run balanced preamps, and power amps for these reasons.

I didn’t know that about speaker-level signals, (or forgot it in my old age). So where are your amps relative to your speakers?

I wasn’t very clear in my last post... I meant to point out my monoblocks have both balanced and unbalanced inputs. My stereo preamp with the theater bypass function only has unbalanced connections, so a compromise would need to be made if I were to adopt that system architecture (another option is mentioned below). The monoblocks would would need to be located either close to the speakers or close to the preamp. That would mean either long unbalanced interconnects or long speaker cable. I’m unsure which would be best for this option.

So that’s one way of joining the two systems: The 2CH preamp (L/R stereo signals) is powered down so it’s theater bypass function switches in the HT preamp (L/R mains signals). A different option would be to connect the 2CH preamp outputs to a spare input on the HT preamp. This configuration allows the 2CH system to benefit from the HT system’s bass management and DIrac technology. Word is spreading about Dirac’s effectiveness as a room correction tool, so we know the rewards the 2CH system will reap. But what’s not so obvious are the benefits the 2CH system will reap from bass-managed and system-integrated subwoofers. If the two systems are joined in the manner described immediately above, then the monoblocks can be located near the speakers to use short cable there, but long balanced interconnects back to the HT preamp.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Bright, bright... candy apple red!!


not suggested ;-)

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Does the Ferrari Red lacquer on my 2ch preamp count? Paint it ALL black!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Did you know SVS is marketing their subs (at least in part) by touting their hip-hop capability? SVS subs may still have appropriate finesse for music, but being associated with the hip-hop genre does not impress me. Just the opposite—I recognize hip-hop as neither a high-quality source, nor as an art form—so am reluctant to bestow any praise on a sub for reproducing purposely exaggerated bass lines and synth notes.

EDIT: Then again, high-end companies like SVS need to appeal to new breed of enthusiast to keep the hobby alive.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

A 25ft length of Blue Jeans series-1 HDMI cable is due to arrive tomorrow. I figured that’s the length I’d need to reach from the ceiling-mounted projector in the back of the room to the pre/pro in the equipment closet via the attic. It will also help me test the projector now.

I’ll need to test it in the living room because there’s not enough space in my current theater. It’s probably a good idea to read its instructions first since I’ve never owned one before. The walls aren't light enough for a makeshift screen, so I may try using a some unfinished drywall sections to judge picture quality.

 

[NBPK402]

I will be running my amps in the AV rack when I get the setup completed...so I will be running 2' long XLRs from my AVP5100 to my Xilica crossover, and then 2' XLRs to the 7 mono channel B&O amp. From that point my fronts will be no more 25' (if I run my cables up the wall and over the windows). That is if I run my rack in the front of the room... If I run my rack to the left of my listening position, I might run the amp in front, and run long XLRs from the Xilica to the amp. I am thinking of doing it with the rack to my side as it cleans up the front of the room with only 3 speakers, tv, and amp. I will be running balanced to all my channels as even my Atmos amps are balanaced.
I am not sure if I will lose top end or not with long speaker cables.
In my situation I have 114db with 1 watt (500hz and up), and 170w mono amp modules so I have plenty of power to use a shelf on the top end if I need more HF (not sure if I can even hear up to 17k anymore though). In theory I should be running my pro amps next to my Atmos speakers, but that is not really doable in my layout.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Nice setup! You’ve definitely thought things through. I’m with you on hearing loss... I know mine is damaged up high, so I don’t really care if some top end is lost using long speaker cables. Galen Carol has this to say in his article on cable length vs. sound quality:

“Long speaker cables can also be of concern. First in terms of the added impedance that substantial runs may add, the increased resistance can, in more extreme cases, lead to power loss. <SNIP> Furthermore, on a Dollar-per-foot basis, equivalent quality speaker cables are usually far more expensive than their line-level counterparts, making longer interconnects/shorter speaker cables a less expensive alternative.”

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Reallocated funds to trade spare drivers for additional bass trapping (ref: Post-116). I changed direction after communicating with Revel tech support about the midrange’s history. There was never a design revision to improve that driver; it was only slightly modified for a different manufacturing site. And as for the tweeters, my hearing rolls off fast enough to tame any top-end nasties. I may still order the center channel’s tweeter/midrange units to keep as spares.

The general house fund for furniture, housewares, etc. may run thin, so my complementary HT sofa may not materialize. But hey, I’ve still got a traditional, comfy, Italian leather model and it’s even in.... RED, lol!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Like a good mystery novel with twists, turns and double-crosses, my journey toward a new HT practically reverses on a dime! I’ll bet you’re asking yourself, “What now?”

Well, get this:
I’m browsing the web for reviews of my center channel when I come across an Audioholics ad for an entire surround set of Ultima Salon/Studio/Voice speakers. If I hadn’t scrolled down the thread to look at the handsome piano black color scheme, I would have missed the best evidence yet that I am not imagining the peculiar midrange distortion I’ve been trying to put into words. If you read Post #3 in the linked ad above, you’ll see that my memory of an improved driver is true (not at all like Revel’s recent explanation of a shift in manufacturing plants)!

Some of Revel’s original midrange’s developed problems in the field because of a glue-related issue. These driver’s glue deteriorated, causing them to sound scratchy—could be due to many things: foreign material in the gap; an off-center former; or even a dislodged coil winding. In the seller’s own words:

“The Original 4" Midranges using in the Voice and Salons had a problem with the glue and became scratchy. Revel corrected design and all three midranges are new. The Salons were replaced this year the Voice in 2013.

When the midranges had problems , I thought it was the Tweeters so I replaced the two Salon tweeters. They were probably fine and I still have them.”

Now watch sufferin’s about-face to once again contemplate driver replacement in his L/C/R set! With two “witnesses” under my belt, the temptation is high. This old man’s high-frequency hearing loss is probably worse than average, so replacing tweeters doesn’t automatically mean better sound. But this peculiar midrange distortion has nagged me off and on for a too long. I used to fully trust my hearing until that elusive “scratchy-ness” toyed with me. Now I’m hopeful my trust will be renewed upon auditioning the revised midrange drivers.

Luckily, those are about 40% cheaper than the tweeters. A complement of three will set me back ~ $900. Ouch. Triple-ouch if they don’t improve the sound, because there’ll be no refund.

EDIT: Total was ~ $675 shipped. Haven’t auditioned them yet, but am gathering appropriate source material to track the gremlins!

 

[NBPK402]

I agree with you on havimgnspares if needed... I have 4 or 5 extra EV DH1A drivers for my horns now. I originally got 4 for my surrounds, but then situation changed to where I have smaller speakers for the surrounds... hence spares.

Reallocated funds to trade spare drivers for additional bass trapping (ref: Post-116). I changed direction after communicating with Revel tech support about the midrange’s history. There was never a design revision to improve that driver; it was only slightly modified for a different manufacturing site. And as for the tweeters, my hearing rolls off fast enough to tame any top-end nasties. I may still order the center channel’s tweeter/midrange units to keep as spares.

The general house fund for furniture, housewares, etc. may run thin, so my complementary HT sofa may not materialize. But hey, I’ve still got a traditional, comfy, Italian leather model and it’s even in.... RED, lol!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

You and I both know how time flies! I’ve been involved with non-HT issues for too long. I’m still waiting on he Seaton Sound SubMersives subwoofers. Mark does not deserve all the negative press he receives on some of the forums. I believe respect is mutual. Complaining and name-calling are the quickest way to get ignored. Marks latest estimate has my pair shipping in early November.

I’m on the fence about taking advantage of the deeply discounted trade-in program to upgrade my Emotiva XMC-1 to an XMC-2. I wouldn’t be able to use the 4K/HDR video features or the expanded number of channels for Atmos/ DTS-X until I upgraded the player, TV, projector and added surrounds/height speakers. But it might be a smart move to begin the migration toward 4K/HDR with this unit while Emotiva’s limited-time trade in program is available (1st come 1st served on October has sold out).

 

[Todd Anderson]

Personally, I'd go the upgrade route (as long as that fits into finances)... I would stress the wallet, though.

 

[JStewart]

I’m on the fence about taking advantage of the deeply discounted trade-in program to upgrade my Emotiva XMC-1 to an XMC-2. I wouldn’t be able to use the 4K/HDR video features or the expanded number of channels for Atmos/ DTS-X until I upgraded the player, TV, projector and added surrounds/height speakers. But it might be a smart move to begin the migration toward 4K/HDR with this unit while Emotiva’s limited-time trade in program is available (1st come 1st served on October has sold out).

Because the discount is so steep you may want to just for the resale value of the processor at some point down the road and if you ever did want to upgrade to 4k and missed this opportunity.... well let's just say you wouldn't be very happy. If you need still more of an excuse, the XMC-2 has a good chance of getting Dirac bass management for 2 subs. What better way to treat those new Seatons?

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Both of you build a solid case for upgrading. And that’s just enough to tip the scales. Now all I need is for Emotiva to open up round two of trade-ins. They declared October orders closed, with the promise of more to come in November. I’m on their email notification list, so Getting in on the ground floor shouldn’t be a problem next time.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

You and I both know how time flies! I’ve been involved with non-HT issues for too long. I’m still waiting on he Seaton Sound SubMersives subwoofers. Mark does not deserve all the negative press he receives on some of the forums. I believe respect is mutual. Complaining and name-calling are the quickest way to get ignored. Marks latest estimate has my pair shipping in early November.

I’m on the fence about taking advantage of the deeply discounted trade-in program to upgrade my Emotiva XMC-1 to an XMC-2. I wouldn’t be able to use the 4K/HDR video features or the expanded number of channels for Atmos/ DTS-X until I upgraded the player, TV, projector and added surrounds/height speakers. But it might be a smart move to begin the migration toward 4K/HDR with this unit while Emotiva’s limited-time trade in program is available (1st come 1st served on October has sold out).

Emotiva has said that they will give plenty of notice before ending the upgrade program. Let's just say that I would wait at this point.

I'm also monitoring the progress of the XMC-2. I've spoken with owners off the record, and let's just say that I have started looking at other options.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Emotiva has said that they will give plenty of notice before ending the upgrade program. Let's just say that I would wait at this point.

I'm also monitoring the progress of the XMC-2. I've spoken with owners off the record, and let's just say that I have started looking at other options.

Hello... alright @thrillcat, you can't dangle fruit like that! Do tell!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Lol. Yah! What’s the big idea? We’re on pins and needles here.

With all seriousness, I think I know what thrillcat is alluding to and why he opted to leave it at that. The answer can start down the path of negative feedback about the vendor, which can be a slippery slope.

Please correct me if I’m wrong...
Without intentional negativity, I’ll venture to say that Emotiva has a proven track record of releasing firmware updates behind its competitors. Features like Dirac Bass Management may be added we’ll after initial product launch, or not at all. That’s what happened with Emotiva’s planned 4K upgrade path for the XMC-1. The path proved too complex for some of its internal modules so they rolled-over the upgrade into the XMC-2.

And while Emotiva does conduct formal Beta Testing, they also condone field testing by customers after release. Simply put, some of their products experience growing pains which manifest themselves as performance glitches.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

I can't tell specifics, but I would just say hold off as long as you can before making your final decision.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

I have been very, very happy with my XMC-1. @1_sufferin_mind, I think you have mistyped, it's the Atmos/DTSX upgrade that they couldn't pull off on the XMC-1. And that is likely not correct, either.

I have the XMC-1 with the v3 HDMI board, which does 4K without problem. There are a couple quirks, but nothing I can't overlook.

They decided that, rather than spend time developing FW and supporting a completely different platform (the XMC-1), that if they migrated as many as possible to the XMC-2 or RMC, they could focus their resources on a single platform. That is just a good business move.

However, that being said, I am very happy with my XMC-1, it sounds better than anything I've ever had in my room, but when the time comes to update, it will no longer be an automatic decision to go to the XMC-2 or RMC-1L.

And for whatever reason, I just had an incredible wave of deja vu typing that last sentence. Not being a smart , not Emotiva related, I really felt like I've lived this exact moment before, feet on my desk typing on my laptop, that exact sentence. So much to the point I had to check my previous posts.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I can't tell specifics, but I would just say hold off as long as you can before making your final decision.

If it’s one thing I like about AV NIRVANA, it’s that advice can be taken to the bank!

 

[NBPK402]

Can you use the Emotive discount cards for repeat customers? I have seen some big ones for sale on eBay for what appeared to be very cheap...like half price.