The Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Discussion Thread

[Matthew J Poes]

Not sure if you're serious or not but just in case.......if you're looking at the twin 2400 watt amps on the G21 subs they would both be fine on a single 15a circuit. And you might even be able to get away with a few other things on it as well---maybe even a big AVR.

Often we tend to go on a simple VxA and think okay, I got 1800 watt in a perfect world from a 15a circuit. But we need to consider a few important factors.

a) a 15a circuit will provide 30-60 amps for 5-15 seconds. (see attached).

b) amplifiers will have som,e degree of energy storage or capacitance. With the SpeakerPower 2400 watts amps the storage capabilities are huge.

c) Movies and music are transient in nature...meaning they will almost never draw constant power from the amplifier for even one full second.

When you combine all of the above you can generate 4800 watts for 3-15 seconds on one 15a circuit with these amps. Which is longer than any movie/music sequence would demand.

Now, sine waves at 20hz? Yeah, breakers will be breakin.. But that's better than voice coils a-meltin!

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I had an 800 watt receiver, 4000 watts subwoofer amp, 700 watt main amp, and 600 watt center channel amp all on a single 15 amp breaker. Even exceeding reference levels and clipping one of those amps I never tripped a breaker.

 

[Todd Anderson]

We've seen a big spike in veneer sales over the past 30-45 days. I can't say for sure why but we're not complaining! I do know the local cabinet shop never seems to mind when I put in a new PO either..

Here's a couple Cordovan we shipped yesterday.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Gorgeous looking, Tom! The woodgrain looks super smooth!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Nothing accessible to the public yet. We're working on it. The goal is to have a complete product lineup geared toward the installer market eventually.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

So did this start with your partnership with Nyal and now you are looking to open it up? I think it's a great move. When I saw your sub on his site my first reaction was that PSA should sell that on their own.

I have some ideas for installer subs. They aren't unique but the existing models are too expensive and too low performance for my taste.

6th order series tuned with a semi-rigid front port so you can hide the sub outside the theater or out of sight and port it where you need it.

The other need is for a very basic 6" deep sub enclosure that could be used in multiples for more output, and deployed in more locations for smoother bass (including bass arrays). The only real engineering trick is making light weight, wall mountable, ability to link multiples without wires obviously connecting them. Maybe even a smaller 4" deep version for special circumstances.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Interesting ideas, Matt. What's the design theory behind 6th order?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Interesting ideas, Matt. What's the design theory behind 6th order?

Ok so the reason I wanted it here is solely packaging requirements. If a sub is in a space seperated from the room you want the bass in, you need to pipe the bass in. Since a 6th order sub operates similarly to a ported sub you get the LF efficiency advantage.

Series tuned has two advantages. One is shorter ports for the LF portion. The other is only one port into the room instead of two. Again just a packaging issue.

In the old days a Bandpass design offered advantages in efficiency and reduction of distortion. Today drivers have a lot more linear behavior at much higher volumes so these advantages are less needed. At this point every advantage a Bandpass has accompanied with equally troublesome problems like non-linear port behavior (ports produce distortion long before chuffing and compression, limiting output if not sized appropriately). Still a Bandpass has it's merits, including the enhanced efficiency, and the packaging can be useful.

 

[leecreek]

I had an 800 watt receiver, 4000 watts subwoofer amp, 700 watt main amp, and 600 watt center channel amp all on a single 15 amp breaker. Even exceeding reference levels and clipping one of those amps I never tripped a breaker.

Caution should be noted as lots of fires are started because the circuit breakers did not open the circuit.

From Siemens site......

Electrical System Coverage

Siemens warrants the Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device for two years and will pay up to $20,000 for, at Siemens’ option, reasonable repair costs or replacement at fair market value of the residential electrical systems and hard wired appliances. The electrical system must be properly installed and grounded in accordance with the National Electrical Code and local codes and requirements. Devices and systems covered:

Residential electrical system including Panelboard, internal wiring, receptacles, switches, dimmers and lamp holders

Hard wired appliances including refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners, ranges, ovens, washers, dishwashers, dryers, pool pumps, pool heaters, hot tubs, hydro-message spas, electric hot water heaters and electric furnaces.

The Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device warranty does NOT cover these types of appliances (including but not limited to): computers, VCRs, televisions, fax machines, scanners and copiers, audio/video components, and telecommunications systems.

Warranty Limitations

Siemens’ payment for catastrophic event related damage or loss to a protected electrical system is limited to reasonable direct costs per occurrence and does not include time, travel or indirect costs. Warranty coverage is secondary to service contracts and all other forums of applicable facility, property or equipment loss insurance carried by Customer. Warranty coverage is for a single catastrophic event during the two year period. After a covered event the Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device must be replaced. No payment on the Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device warranty shall exceed $20,000.

Warranty Exclusions

Damage or loss associated with Acts of God such as Flood and Earthquake, and War, Insurrection, Vandalism, Theft, Normal-use Wear and Tear, Erosion, Depletion, Obsolescence, Abuse, Non-authorized Program or Equipment Modification, or Alteration is excluded. Software, Data, Virus Interaction, or Indirect Losses are also excluded from warranty protection.

Warranty Period

Warranty period shall be twenty-four (24) months from the date of proper installation but not to exceed thirty (30) months from the date of purchase.

Warranty Limitations

There are no other warranties which extend beyond the warranties expressly set forth herein. These warranties, and Siemens obligations and liabilities hereunder, are expressly in lieu of all other warranties and guarantees and all liabilities therefore, whether express or implied, and arising by law or otherwise, including without imitation any implied warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose. In no event will Siemens be liable for any other damages whether they be direct, indirect, incidental, consequential or otherwise.

With respect to products purchased by consumers in the United States for personal use, implied warranties, including buy not limited to the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose, are not excluded but are limited to the duration of the warranty period set forth above. Some states do not allow limitation on the duration of implied warranties, sot the above limitations may not apply to buyer. This warranty gives buyer specific legal rights, and the buyer also have other rights which may vary from state to state.

YMMV but the first sign we had to replace 480 volt and on down breakers were burnt stuff. Wires and breaker box failures as the breakers would not open the circuit.
I pulled a lot of wire in 32 years of employment.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Caution should be noted as lots of fires are started because the circuit breakers did not open the circuit.

From Siemens site......

Electrical System Coverage

Siemens warrants the Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device for two years and will pay up to $20,000 for, at Siemens’ option, reasonable repair costs or replacement at fair market value of the residential electrical systems and hard wired appliances. The electrical system must be properly installed and grounded in accordance with the National Electrical Code and local codes and requirements. Devices and systems covered:

Residential electrical system including Panelboard, internal wiring, receptacles, switches, dimmers and lamp holders

Hard wired appliances including refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners, ranges, ovens, washers, dishwashers, dryers, pool pumps, pool heaters, hot tubs, hydro-message spas, electric hot water heaters and electric furnaces.

The Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device warranty does NOT cover these types of appliances (including but not limited to): computers, VCRs, televisions, fax machines, scanners and copiers, audio/video components, and telecommunications systems.

Warranty Limitations

Siemens’ payment for catastrophic event related damage or loss to a protected electrical system is limited to reasonable direct costs per occurrence and does not include time, travel or indirect costs. Warranty coverage is secondary to service contracts and all other forums of applicable facility, property or equipment loss insurance carried by Customer. Warranty coverage is for a single catastrophic event during the two year period. After a covered event the Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device must be replaced. No payment on the Circuit Breaker and Surge Protective Device warranty shall exceed $20,000.

Warranty Exclusions

Damage or loss associated with Acts of God such as Flood and Earthquake, and War, Insurrection, Vandalism, Theft, Normal-use Wear and Tear, Erosion, Depletion, Obsolescence, Abuse, Non-authorized Program or Equipment Modification, or Alteration is excluded. Software, Data, Virus Interaction, or Indirect Losses are also excluded from warranty protection.

Warranty Period

Warranty period shall be twenty-four (24) months from the date of proper installation but not to exceed thirty (30) months from the date of purchase.

Warranty Limitations

There are no other warranties which extend beyond the warranties expressly set forth herein. These warranties, and Siemens obligations and liabilities hereunder, are expressly in lieu of all other warranties and guarantees and all liabilities therefore, whether express or implied, and arising by law or otherwise, including without imitation any implied warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose. In no event will Siemens be liable for any other damages whether they be direct, indirect, incidental, consequential or otherwise.

With respect to products purchased by consumers in the United States for personal use, implied warranties, including buy not limited to the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose, are not excluded but are limited to the duration of the warranty period set forth above. Some states do not allow limitation on the duration of implied warranties, sot the above limitations may not apply to buyer. This warranty gives buyer specific legal rights, and the buyer also have other rights which may vary from state to state.

YMMV but the first sign we had to replace 480 volt and on down breakers were burnt stuff. Wires and breaker box failures as the breakers would not open the circuit.
I pulled a lot of wire in 32 years of employment.

In my specific scenario the amps were all on a single power conditioner with it's own 15 amp breaker. Each of the amps had their own built in fuse or breaker. I would think that if any device drew enough current for long enough it would have poppers the breaker on the conditioner. I also have very efficient speakers and notes that the amp meter on the conditioner never exceeded a handful of amps of current even at reference levels. My point was more than it's rare people exceed their wall current capabilities for any length of time.

I'm a little surprised by this thought though. My own experience with bad breakers was the exact opposite. When they started to go they would pop too easily. I'm not an electrician but uses to work with one as a maintenance worker in my father's nursing home as a teenager. He told me breakers are designed to fail this way, as they go they trigger more quickly until eventually they won't stay closed at all. Your suggestions the oppossite, that as they fail they fail closed?

In any case my current setup is vastly different. I now have 6 20 amp circuits and one 30 amp circuit in total in the dedicated theater. 3 of the 20 amp circuits and one 30 amp are dedicates to the equipment. They are all on the same phase and the grounds are linked to a star point in the equipment closet. If I ever manage to exceed my breakers now I'll be shocked. My system efficiency hasn't changed, though the room is larger, and I still find I'm using very little of the power at any time. For example the average volume of voices in a movie at reference level will be somewhere in the range of about 85db. My speakers are 95db efficient. For just the center channel playing alone at a listening distance of 14 feet, we are talking about 2 watts. Durring.peaks of 105db most soundtracks achieve this with all or nearly all speakers playing. We are talking about 100 watts of draw after accounting for the innefficiency of the amplifiers (that's combined across all speakers).

The hard one is the subwoofers for most people. Most high excursion and low FS subs used in theaters have an efficiency spec in the low frequencies of just 75-80db, maybe 85 for ported designs with large enclosures. Room gain helps a lot, but still. Hitting 115db peak output at 30-80hz can require multiple subs getting 2000 watts or more each. However this is normally very brief, which is why it's not usually an issue for most people (most people also couldn't hit 115db).

I'd be curious to know if Tom has ever investigated power usage from subs. I understand their are self diagnostic power conditioners used with servers that store power usage, current, voltage, line distortion, power factor, etc. It would be interesting to watch a movie plugged into one of these to see what really happens. This would better tell us just how much is being used and how important a concern this is. I can't afford or justify such a power conditioner.

 

[leecreek]

Breakers are there to protect wire. And yes they will fail closed depending on if the beast decides it so. Worst case involving me was a 480 volt breaker that failed on a motor starter on a mcc. 300 amp breaker inside the starter. It didn't trip It didn't trip the AK breaker in the main dist. room. Was sending +5000 amps, 3 phase 480 to the field. We had to shut down the whole motor control center down manually from the main dist. room.

Cost of repairs at least 30k and a week of down time. A lot of 'hats' off but no one hurt.

My point is just because it didn't trip, maybe it should have. Electric distribution stuff is too dangerous to screw around with. You never know what will happen. Like Murphy's Law.

 

[Tom V.]

Hi all,

We have one "star of the show(or at least this thread!)" S7201 b-stock on hand. $3249 shipped. Performs perfect, looks *almost* perfect---there's one imperfection on one side of the cabinet. One of those "if I didn't tell you where to look you would have a difficult time finding it" deals.

Anyway, I'll see if I can even get it to show up in a picture.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Todd Anderson]

This is the candy store thread.

Someone needs to buy that S7201... @climber07. This is your chance for duals!

 

[climber07]

This is the candy store thread.

Someone needs to buy that S7201... @climber07. This is your chance for duals!

I don't think my house could take it. The single S7201 is brutal as it is.

I'm also not ready for another epic two hour sub moving up a flight of stairs adventure.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Curious - what's been your favorite S7201 experience thus far?

 

[climber07]

Curious - what's been your favorite S7201 experience thus far?

That's a tough one. There are so many Oh My Gosh moments with this thing. Being able to re-watch every movie I have, regardless of the soundtrack's bass score, and being awestruck by the power, precision, and quality of the bass. It is literally a whole new experience. I would have to say watching Fury is probably one of the high points. It feels like the tank is in the room.

I had a group of friends (with their wives) and watched Interstellar. When the wormhole scene played, their faces had mixed look of fear and amazement. A few of them looked around the room as the floor undulated. After the scene, the guys had stupid grins on their faces and the wives looked directly at them and said "Don't even think about it". PRICELESS!

 

[Tom V.]

Hi All, couple quick updates.

1) Speaker sales have been very strong in 2018. We have been OOS(out-of-stock) on all four speaker models on/off for most of 2018. All current back orders should ship in approximately one week. That's the good news. The bad news is we have so many back orders we're going to use up much of the inbound inventory as soon as it arrives.

End game is:

* MTM210 towers. These are all spoken for. Best estimate is a new order will ship early June.

* MTM210 bookshelf. As of today(morning of 5-7) we have one pair left not spoken for. Once these are sold, we're looking at early-mid June to get more.

* MT110. These are all spoken for. Best estimate is a new order will ship early June.
* MT110 surround. We have two pair left. Once these are sold, mid June.



2) Here's a shot of our updated 18" driver next to the current 18" driver(updated driver on right). The main (visual) difference is the color of the surround. The updated driver has a much darker surround hue. I was asked on another forum if we're going to do an upgrade program and we are not. I will copy/paste the reasoning below.


We actually do "running changes/upgrades" on the drivers and amps on a fairly regular basis. Both the 15 inch and 18 inch have been updated a multiple times since they were introduced. The update can be for performance purposes, longevity purposes, assembly consistency, or even aesthetic consistency. Unless there's a significant(easily audible) improvement it's nothing we really make a big deal about.

The *SE* upgrade you referenced is a good example. Pretty significant (audible) benefits but it also came with a big cost increase. So we wanted to make sure we informed everyone that although we were forced to increase the price on the subwoofers, there were performance gains involved we felt were well worth the price differences. And a byproduct of that was also offering the *SE* upgrade kits.

In this case, I wouldn't describe the update as offering a significant performance difference so we're not going to offer upgrades. If it wasn't a clearly visible difference I wouldn't have even mentioned it

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Vidiot33]

I’m very happy to say one pair of the 210T’s has my name on it!

 

[MikeyMac]

Own one? This is the destination for anyone owning a Power Sound Audio subwoofer. Show us what you have!

 

[MikeyMac]

I currently have 1 of the S3600i and 1 S3601m

 

[MikeyMac]

Hi guys sorry still getting to grips on how to post and add pictures.

My setup is
Focal Utopias Front L & R on a Mcintosh MC452

Focal Electra 1038be Left & Right on Edge G8+ monoblocks

Focal 1008be Back Surround Left & Right on Pioneer SC-LX901

4 x Kef crr200i thx in ceiling for Atmos height
On Pioneer SC-LX901

1 Power Sound Audio S3600i

1 Power Sound Audio S3611

Woo Audio WA6 SE Headphone amplifier

And I am currently ordering the first S7201 to come in to Europe and selling the S3600i

 

[Michael Scott]

looks good man!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Looks good! I used to have the same Focal Utopia speakers but prior to their switch to Berryllium tweeters.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Hi guys sorry still getting to grips on how to post and add pictures.

My setup is
Focal Utopias Front L & R on a Mcintosh MC452

Focal Electra 1038be Left & Right on Edge G8+ monoblocks

Focal 1008be Back Surround Left & Right on Pioneer SC-LX901

4 x Kef crr200i thx in ceiling for Atmos height
On Pioneer SC-LX901

1 Power Sound Audio S3600i

1 Power Sound Audio S3611

Woo Audio WA6 SE Headphone amplifier

And I am currently ordering the first S7201 to come in to Europe and selling the S3600i

Nice rig, @MikeyMac!!! For photo sharing, you can literally drag photos from your desktop right into the text box. They'll load and then appear as a small icon below the text box. Then just click share full image and you're off an running. If you're on mobile, click "upload a file" below the text box and that gives you an option to take a pic with your phone or upload from your photo library. Similar to a computer, you then select "full image" and it will load!

If you have moment... you should create a page in our AV Showcase for your room. It's easy... you have beautiful system! Here's a link: https://www.avnirvana.com/showcase/

 

[MikeyMac]

Nice rig, @MikeyMac!!! For photo sharing, you can literally drag photos from your desktop right into the text box. They'll load and then appear as a small icon below the text box. Then just click share full image and you're off an running. If you're on mobile, click "upload a file" below the text box and that gives you an option to take a pic with your phone or upload from your photo library. Similar to a computer, you then select "full image" and it will load!

If you have moment... you should create a page in our AV Showcase for your room. It's easy... you have beautiful system! Here's a link: https://www.avnirvana.com/showcase/

Hi
Thank you I will I am just waiting on my S7201 to arrive in a few weeks and once set up I will upload everything

 

[Todd Anderson]

Definitely snap some photos of that beast during delivery and install!

 

[MikeyMac]

Definitely snap some photos of that beast during delivery and install!

Hi Todd
Yes I definitely will and as this will be the first S7201 in Europe I will try and do a little video as on the internet there isn’t many user reviews or video on the S7201 and I will be coming from the PSA S3600i and S 3601 so I am really looking forward to hearing the difference.
I am px the S3600i and will be pairing the S7201 with the S3601that I am keeping,

 

[MikeyMac]

Hi everyone
Really excited the S7201 should be here within a week, so now I have to place it somewhere which is not so easy in my room, I can’t place it in the front where my main l & r speakers are as the cabinet is there see picture, I have the other 2 PSA S3601 & S3600i subs on the back wall either side of the sofa see pictures.
One S3600 is in the left corner of the MLP up against the brick wall where it then opens out to the dining room and the other S3601 is in the right corner of the MLP so not sure where I should place the S7201 and it’s replacing the S3600i and I am keeping the S3601.
Not sure if a corner placement is right for the S7201 ? What has others done ? Hope the pictures help show the room